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ai;dr

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Re: ai;dr

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest sorrow right now is the fact that my beloved emdash is a major signal for AI generated content. I've been using it for decades now but these days, I almost always pause for a second.

> I've been using it for decades now but these days, I almost always pause for a second. Wrote about this before [0] but my 2c: you shouldn't pause and you should keep using them because fuck these companies and their AI tools. We should not give them the power to dictate how we write. [0]: https://manuelmoreale.com/thoughts/on-em-dashes

That's not really how it works.

Gemini tells me that for thousands of years, the swastika was used as "a symbol of positivity, luck and cosmic order". Try drawing it on something now and showing it to people. Is this an effective way to fight Nazism?

I think it's brave to keep using em dashes, but I don't think it's smart, because we human writers who like using them (myself very much included) will never have the mindshare to displace the culturally dominant meaning. At least, not until the dominant forces in AI decide of their own accord that they don't want their LLMs emitting so many of them.

Re: ai;dr

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest sorrow right now is the fact that my beloved emdash is a major signal for AI generated content. I've been using it for decades now but these days, I almost always pause for a second.

For what it's worth, whatever LLMs do extensively, they do because it's a convention in well-established writing styles. LLMs have a bias towards expertise and confidence due to the proportion of books in their training set. They also lean towards an academic writing style for the same reason. All this to say, if LLMs write like you were already writing, it means you have very good foundations. It's fine to avoid the…

> For what it's worth, whatever LLMs do extensively, they do because it's a convention in well-established writing styles.

I think that's only part of the story. I think that while it's true what LLMs do is somehow represented in their corpus of training data, they also lack any understanding of how to adapt to the context, how to find a suitable "voice", and how not to overdo it, unless you explicitly prompt them otherwise, which is too much of a burden. Their default voice sucks, basically.

So let's say they learned to speak in Redditese. They don't know when not to speak in that voice. They always seem to be trying to make persuasive arguments, follow patterns of "It's not X. It's Y. And you know it (mic drop)." But real humans don't speak like this all the damn time. If you speak like this to your mom or to your closest friends, you're basically an idiot.

It's not that you cannot speak like this. It's that you cannot do it all the time. And that's the real problem with LLMs.

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Re: ai;dr

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been using it for decades now but these days, I almost always pause for a second. Wrote about this before [0] but my 2c: you shouldn't pause and you should keep using them because fuck these companies and their AI tools. We should not give them the power to dictate how we write. [0]: https://manuelmoreale.com/thoughts/on-em-dashes

That's not really how it works. Gemini tells me that for thousands of years, the swastika was used as "a symbol of positivity, luck and cosmic order". Try drawing it on something now and showing it to people. Is this an effective way to fight Nazism? I think it's brave to keep using em dashes, but I don't think it's smart, because we human writers who like using them (myself very much included) will never have the mi…

I'm not confident that the average person is aware of an em dash nor that it is widely associated with AI; I think the current culturally dominant meaning is just a fat hyphen (which most people just call a dash anyway).

Re: ai;dr

#235
post #6

I really like Oxide's take on AI for prose: https://rfd.shared.oxide.computer/rfd/0576 and how it breaks the "social contract" where usually it takes more effort to write than to read, and so you have a sense that it's worth it to read. So I get the frustration that "ai;dr" captures. On the other hand, I've also seen human writing incorrectly labeled AI. I wrote (using AI!) https://seeitwritten.com as a bit of an exp…

Re: unsettling Perhaps it could replace any characters that will go on to be deleted with astrisks.

Re: ai;dr

#236

"Growing up, typos and grammatical errors were a negative signal. Funnily enough, that’s completely flipped for me." For me too and for writing it has the upside that it's sooo relaxing to just type away and not worry about the small errors much anymore.

And there was no such word as "funnily" till the language got dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Now we have to argue with the same dolts who use the word and will tell us about how it's now in the dictionary. Now it is to satisfy someone somewhere but no one who really knew better.

For that matter, till does not have the same meaning as until.

Re: ai;dr

#237
> Why should I bother to read something someone else couldn't be bothered to write?

You don't; you feed it to an LLM and ask it to read it for you.

Re: ai;dr

#238
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because when I see an em dash now, I assume that it was written by AI, not that the author is one of the people who puts enough effort into their product that they intentionally use specific sized dashes. AI might suck, but if the author doesn't change, they get categorized as a lazy AI user, unless the rest of their writing is so spectacular that it's obvious an AI didn't write it. My personal situation is fi…

If you’re judging my writing so shallowly, I don’t think I’m writing for you.

I don’t think I’m judging shallowly- there is no em-dash on a standard keyboard. The one way it ends up in real writing is if you use a typesetting program like LaTeX, or Word changes an en-dash with auto formatting, or the user consciously interrupts their writing flow to insert the character with a special keystroke combination or by pasting it in. The proportion of people who do any of those things in writing for the web is quite small. The number of clearly AI written posts with em-dashes is quite large. So large, that I immediately suspect AI writing when I see an em-dash and I rarely see countering evidence that suggests the author is human but meticulous about how they write.

Re: ai;dr

#240

We are getting to a point where AI will be able to construct sound arguments in prose. They will make logical sense. Dismissing them only because of their origin is fallacious thinking. Conclusion: Dismissing arguments solely because they are AI-generated constitutes a class of genetic fallacy, which should be called 'Argumentum ad machina'. Premises: 1. The validity of a logical argument is determined by the truth o…

I disagree with your first assumption. Well, mostly disagree. Let me explain.

It's true that AI-generated arguments can have true premises and sound inferences, some of the time. But the models are still too likely to hallucinate. Let's say at some distant future date the hallucination rate gets down to just 10%, so it's 90% likely that the argument is well constructed. (Which I personally doubt LLMs will ever be capable of as long as they are still statistically-based; I think it will take a model that is based on facts and logical reasoning, rather than on the probability of the next word being "the" or "argument" or "premise", before LLMs will be reliably able to produce logical reasoning that follows actual logic).

But here's the thing. When I'm reading an article, I'm not looking for "is this 90% likely to be true?" I'm looking for 100%. If a source has a 10% chance of being wrong, I'm going to skip reading that source in favor of a source that has a 0% chance of being wrong, or if that's not possible then a 1% chance. Yes, that's a logical fallacy... if my goal was proving the argument wrong. But my goal is different. My goal is finding reliable information as quickly as I can. And to that end, the genetic fallacy is actually useful to apply. Not as a "it's written by AI so it's wrong" argument — that would be fallacious indeed — but "it's written by AI so I'm not going to spend time on it, I'll skip to another article that is less likely to contain hallucinations" is an actually useful metric to apply.

I've had one too many cases where I asked an LLM, "Can product XYZ do ABC?", it confidently told me "Yes, you can do ABC with XYZ and here's how to do it," then I looked at the actual documentation for XYZ and it specifically said "we can't do ABC; at some future point we plan to add it, and then you will be able to do this: (example code)". And that example code was what the LLM spat out to me saying "Yes, you can do ABC" when the truth was the opposite.

The maxim falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus doesn't really apply to LLMs, because they don't have a moral component to them. It applies to people, because someone whose ethics forbid them to lie is reliable, but someone who is willing to lie about one thing is very likely to be willing to lie about other things, and is therefore unreliable as a source of information. LLMs don't have a sense of morality, and in fact when they hallucinate they're not lying, per se, since lying requires knowing the truth and willingly saying the opposite (as opposed to being mistaken, where you think you're telling the truth even though you're speaking an objective falsehood). LLMs don't know the truth, that's just not a concept programmed into them, so they're not lying, and their willingness to "lie" once does not prove a moral defect. But the fact that they do hallucinate a measurable percentage of the time makes them just as unreliable a source of information as a person who is willing to lie.

So while I do agree that AI-generated arguments can be logically correct, it is not guaranteed that they will be correct. And while it would be fallacious to say "AI-generated, therefore false", it is still useful to say "AI-generated, therefore unreliable and I'll seek out a different source of information".

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