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Slop Terrifies Me

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Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#231

Post by djoldman »

rescripting wrote: post #225
djoldman wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nitpick: most users don’t care about these things until something goes significantly wrong and it impacts them, e.g. a massive data breach or persistent global downtime. > then they get angry. very angry. Yes, this has a lot of overlap with how humans differ from "Homo Economicus" [0]. Humans generally can't find out, don't know, care to know, have the time to research, or are expert enough to understand the ramifi…

I've noticed this is leading to less high quality products being produced in general. If the only real axis people understand is price then products can't compete on quality/durability/maintability/etc, and so they're pushed aside to lower the cost. A recent example: I've bought many articles of clothing from Eddie Bauer over the years because they have been generally high quality and durable, and even so are only a…

There is an interesting counter balance to this consumer tendency: the business.

Businesses/organizations in a lot of ways act much more "rationally" than the individual consumer. So you'll see generally better car/truck maintenance in fleets than by consumers.

Then there is a cool feedback/blowoff valve where more expensive + higher quality "pro" tools get discovered by consumers, drive up demand, the price falls, and then the features become common.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#233

Post by autoexec »

user____name wrote: post #197
djoldman wrote: post #108

Now that generative AI products are becoming more widely used, it's a little depressing how folks don't seem to view the world with a broad historical context. The "AI effect" on the world has many similarities to previous events and in many ways changes very little about how the world works. > I'm terrified of the good enough to ship—and I'm terrified of nobody else caring. For almost every product/service ever offe…

I feel like there's a false dichotomy here where there's an inverse relationship between quality and cost. I know seen plenty of cheap goods that do what they're supposed to and last forever, and I know plenty of expensive projects, both in purchasing price and development cost that are just steaming piles. So you get all this sloppy jank and say "well but at least it's fast and cheap". I'm not sure that's the argume…

The overall trend is that things are getting much more expensive while the quality is declining. It's inevitable when companies insist on endlessly increasing profits.

Even the things that are "good enough" and cheap tend to come with massive hidden costs. For example, good looking clothing can be inexpensive enough for a person to wear everything once and throw it away, but behind the scenes there are child slaves, microplastics/PFAS contamination, and a textile waste crisis.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#234

Post by WalterBright »

tuhgdetzhh wrote: post #191
djoldman wrote: post #108

Now that generative AI products are becoming more widely used, it's a little depressing how folks don't seem to view the world with a broad historical context. The "AI effect" on the world has many similarities to previous events and in many ways changes very little about how the world works. > I'm terrified of the good enough to ship—and I'm terrified of nobody else caring. For almost every product/service ever offe…

Historically, every major general-purpose technology followed the same trajectory. Printing reduced the quality of manuscripts while massively increasing access. Industrialization replaced craftsmanship with standardization. Early automobiles were unreliable and dangerous compared to horse-drawn transport, yet they won because they were sufficient and scalable. The internet degraded editorial standards while enabling…

> Early automobiles were unreliable and dangerous compared to horse-drawn transport

People have forgotten that a lot of people were killed by horses. Cities had to deal with vast quantities of manure and horse corpses. Horses knew they were slaves and you always had to be careful around them. Horses are expensive and required daily maintenance.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#235

Post by WalterBright »

tuhgdetzhh wrote: post #191
djoldman wrote: post #108

Now that generative AI products are becoming more widely used, it's a little depressing how folks don't seem to view the world with a broad historical context. The "AI effect" on the world has many similarities to previous events and in many ways changes very little about how the world works. > I'm terrified of the good enough to ship—and I'm terrified of nobody else caring. For almost every product/service ever offe…

Historically, every major general-purpose technology followed the same trajectory. Printing reduced the quality of manuscripts while massively increasing access. Industrialization replaced craftsmanship with standardization. Early automobiles were unreliable and dangerous compared to horse-drawn transport, yet they won because they were sufficient and scalable. The internet degraded editorial standards while enabling…

> The internet degraded editorial standards

I'm not so sure about those editorial standards. The internet has revealed that there's a lot of propaganda in the newspaper editorials.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#236

Post by mystraline »

hereme888 wrote: post #208
mystraline wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its existential dread, of being useless and of not being able to thrive. Its being compared to that of a slop machine, and billionaires claiming that its better than you are in all ways. Its having integrity in your work, but the LLM slop-machines can lie and go "You're actually right (tells more lies)". It all comes down to that LLMs serve to 'fix' the trillion dollar problem: peoples wages. Especially those enginee…

I hear you, especially as a man, because we're attuned at looking for trouble in the horizon. AI is not some transition from horses to cars, which just meant selling the horse, buying a car, and continue your transport business. It's intelligence that may be able to take over all aspects of our current professional training, thus potentially threatening our livelihoods.

Thats the underlying dread.

The base capitalist premise is if you work, you'll have resources to survive and thrive. The flip-side is that if you cannot or refuse to work, you will starve, be destitute, homeless, without medical care, live under a bridge, and die hopeless.

And societal failings in a capitalist system are always reflected towards the individual no matter what.

Bad monetary policy? Should have saved. Businesses buy state laws to worsen worker laws? Get a better job. Got sick and medical lost your job? Too bad, go die, I guess?

Its never a systemic thing we can identify and fix. But its always always reflected as a personal failing.

Theres a top comment on this article that LLMs are a perfect parieto machine. 80% good, 20% utter shit and lies. That seems to track pretty well with what I'm seeing. If thats generally being accepted, I have to ask if my (and all others professional labor) if we're worth our wages for that 20%. And the question isnt being asked of us, but about us in HR and C levels.

I'm already seeing "make do with what less labor you already have and hope AI helps". I support a national level thing (all 50 states). Used to be 3 engineers for backend. Now its just me. I'm already seeing the stark negative effects, overworking, sloperating as a necessity (no DBA), and hope and prayer stuff doesnt go down.

And combined with the fact we're seeing worse hiring and layoffs since the Great Recession... Something's gotta change.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#237

Post by WalterBright »

doctorwho42 wrote: post #171
kryogen1c wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should also be noted that most companies that make high quality (last decades) low volume goods go out of business; people vote with their dollars and dont want the capex. Put another way, who here wants a car that costs more than their house? Or shoes that cost 2000$?

Or, wealth inequality has gotten so out of hand that people are forced to buy the cheaper products. It's the age old paradigm of buying a pair of shoes/boots, the poor man keeps buying $20 shoes/boots that wear out in a year or two. The wealthy man looks perplexed and states, "this is why they are poor, they don't understand investing in a quality pair of shoes/boots... For a measly $100 they could buy a pair of shoe…

> wealth inequality has gotten so out of hand that people are forced to buy the cheaper products.

Other people having more money does not result in higher prices for the rest, i.e. it does not cause inflation.

For example, when I was a boy steak was a rare luxury. Today, a steak dinner costs less than a TV dinner or a bag of Doritos.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#238

Post by djoldman »

re-thc wrote: post #230
djoldman wrote: post #108

Now that generative AI products are becoming more widely used, it's a little depressing how folks don't seem to view the world with a broad historical context. The "AI effect" on the world has many similarities to previous events and in many ways changes very little about how the world works. > I'm terrified of the good enough to ship—and I'm terrified of nobody else caring. For almost every product/service ever offe…

> For example, it's possible to make hiking boots that last a lot longer than others. But if the requirement is to have it last for just 20 miles, it's better to pay less for one that won't last as long. That's rewriting history especially in terms of software and hardware. Appliances like Microwaves, etc were revolutionary for its time. Only problem: they lasted forever (>20 years). No 1 needed to buy it again = no…

> Appliances like Microwaves, etc were revolutionary for its time. Only problem: they lasted forever (>20 years). No 1 needed to buy it again = no business. It was deliberately not made to last as long and possibly not exactly cheaper both in cost and retail price.

I'm curious if the inflation-adjusted prices of those long-lasting early microwaves were less than the cost of 3 current microwaves that last 7 years. Also, this isn't an apples to apples comparison because they gradually lost performance over time and it took longer to heat up food as they aged.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#239

Post by bitwize »

Findecanor wrote: post #130
satisfice wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly the motivation. The problem with being a billionaire is you still have to associate with poor people. But imagine a world where your wealth completely insulates you from the resentful poor.

That notion is based on the misconception that for there to be very rich people, other people would need to be poor — that would resent you. Economic science has pretty much proven that when the average income in a society is higher and fewer are poor, the economy moves more money and the rich benefit more as well.

Relative wealth disparity is what drives lower-class resentment, not absolute poverty.

Income inequality is very bad in its own right.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#240

Post by the_pwner224 »

autoexec wrote: post #233
user____name wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's a false dichotomy here where there's an inverse relationship between quality and cost. I know seen plenty of cheap goods that do what they're supposed to and last forever, and I know plenty of expensive projects, both in purchasing price and development cost that are just steaming piles. So you get all this sloppy jank and say "well but at least it's fast and cheap". I'm not sure that's the argume…

The overall trend is that things are getting much more expensive while the quality is declining. It's inevitable when companies insist on endlessly increasing profits. Even the things that are "good enough" and cheap tend to come with massive hidden costs. For example, good looking clothing can be inexpensive enough for a person to wear everything once and throw it away, but behind the scenes there are child slaves,…

> things are getting much more expensive while the quality is declining

This is totally untrue, material things have gotten way cheaper over time. TVs, cars, phones, technology, appliances, the list goes on and on.

And quality has improved on many of these, a $500 TV today is way bigger and better than a $5k TV from a few decades ago. Same for cars & phones when you adjust for inflation. Home gadgets / IOT are much more accessible & affordable. Appliances have gotten cheaper and even the higher end products are quite affordable. Ikea furniture is cheap and many of their products are quite durable and solid quality.

And old things weren't always better or more reliable than the modern cheaper products.

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