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Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

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Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#231

Post by ktm5j »

dTal wrote: post #129
ktm5j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the announcement, it saddens them too: > As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. However the reasoning they provide makes sense.. It's hard to build a Linux system with a deskt…

Is it? What's the connection between systemd and having a desktop?

Read the article: "The second reason for dropping System V is that packages like GNOME and soon KDE's Plasma are building in requirements that require capabilities in systemd"

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#232

Post by ktm5j »

simoncion wrote: post #151
ktm5j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the announcement, it saddens them too: > As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. However the reasoning they provide makes sense.. It's hard to build a Linux system with a deskt…

> It's hard to build a Linux system with a desktop these days without Sysd. Most Gentoo Linux desktop users disagree. In fact, OpenRC is the default in that distro. Having said that, I do expect that Gentoo has more manpower available than LFS.

Maybe they're KDE users. I was under the impression that gnome requires it. FTA it sounds like KDE will soon too. Gentoo doesn't come with a desktop by default either, you have to emerge it, which might install systemd..

FTA: "The second reason for dropping System V is that packages like GNOME and soon KDE's Plasma are building in requirements that require capabilities in systemd"

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#233

Post by p_ing »

its_magic wrote: post #163
p_ing wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do that when Win32 is what everyone wants? We’ve already had NT + Linux userland; that was WSLv1.

I think if we're talking about "what everyone wants", Windows 11 obviously isn't it, so that's not necessarily the driving force here.

As I said, everyone wants Win32. What flavor is up to debate, everyone has their own incorrect opinions.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#234

Post by Gud »

Someone wrote: post #230
wobfan wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is not about UNIX, what's good and bad, but what's better for understanding Linux. And replacing SysVInit with systemd is, objectively, bad for understand the core of Linux. And this is the core of LFS. Discussing whether UNIX is good or bad seems narrow-minded, as there is no solution to that. It's like discussing whether iOS is better than Android. We can always isolate some specific parts and discuss t…

> And replacing SysVInit with systemd is, objectively, bad for understand the core of Linux. I know there are strong opinions on this, but isn’t systemd part of the core of most Linux desktops nowadays?

Unfortunately yes

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#235

Post by Gud »

donkeybeer wrote: post #194
pjmlp wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making it even more so of a religion. UNIX is only an OS with some good ideas, and also plenty of bad ones. No reason to stick with it ad eternum as some kind of holy scriptures.

It's "problem" unfortunately is that it happens to be the only major foss os. If there were other foss oses with good support and "better" models I'd gladly try them out. I know I personally would never switch to any non foss os after the user friendliness I have experienced. I would say that's the main reason many stick to it, including game theoretic arguments for commercial players also. Not because people like to…

What’s suicidal about the BSD license? BSD code is everywhere

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#236

Post by p_ing »

wtallis wrote: post #188
rusk wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More advanced APIs which allow more fine-grained interaction between system and application IF you can figure out how to use them

My favorite example of this is how Windows NT has had async IO forever, while also being notorious for having slower storage performance than Linux. And when Linux finally got an async API worth using, Microsoft immediately set about cloning it for Windows. Theoretical or aesthetic advantages are no guarantee that the software in question will actually be superior in practice.

ASync I/O isn't limited to just storage, though. It's /all/ I/O.

And yes, the layered storage stack does have a performance penalty to it. But it's also infinitely more flexible, if that is what you need. Linux still lacks IOCP (which io_uring is not a replacement for).

Windows' VMM and OOM is also generally much better.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#237

Post by cbolton »

jeroenhd wrote: post #219
cf100clunk wrote: post #2

This is a mindblower. To quote Bruce Dubbs: ''As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. Yes, systemd provides a lot of capabilities, but we will be losing some things I consider impor…

I don't mind the inevitable death of System V. It's an archaic relic of the Linux era. Going systemd-only is not necessarily a good choice (though I do understand it from a practical point of view). There are other, better alternatives for System V that are smaller and more modular so you still get the Unix "feel" without the absurd complexity of interlinked shell scripts that System V relies on. I'd like to see Open…

I think systemd is the one to learn now if you want to learn Linux. Maybe someone can make a Unix from Scratch for people more interested in the Unix philosophy than Linux per se.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#238

Post by fsflover »

pjmlp wrote: post #223
fsflover wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are so vague in your attack on Unix approach that it's borderline trolling. What are your problems with it? Modularity and minimalism have been working perfectly and that systemd does not follow them is a bad thing.

There is a book on that, gets posted every now and then on HN. In case you never read it, https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf Hardly the piece of OS beauty that gets praised about FOSS circles.

I'm not talking about the OS though but about the approach.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#240

Post by t43562 »

nice_byte wrote: post #197

I had stopped using linux at the start of the systemd takeover (it was not because of systemd). What I don't understand is how this has happened. I didn't care either way but everybody who did seemed to really fucking hate systemd. Then how come it became the default in so many distributions, with so much opposition from the community?

Commercial interests. Linux has benefited greatly from companies adopting it and paying developers but at the same time there has been a price to pay and this kind of thing is it.

Since it's all open source, I think we're reasonably ok because we don't HAVE to do what the commercial distros chose to do.

The problem is if we let it become too difficult. Personally I think a thing like DBUS is needed but dbus itself is undesirable as it adds another IPC type and has no connection to the filesystem or the BSD socket interface or any of the other standard ways that interfaces can be discovered and used. It has a network effect that is not easy to avoid without accepting degradation in the UI.

The more crap we end up accepting the more difficult it becomes to be a lone developer and the more the whole system will turn towards commercial interests and away from what it started out as.

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