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Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

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Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#231
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, not to mention the fact that Chinese EVs can't be sold here... protectionism for weak American companies that can't compete globally. We've gone from an automotive superpower and the land of Henry Ford to the government propping up automakers and depriving Americans of free choice. If Chinese cars would actually be allowed to sold here they would sell like Toyota Camrys.

Until very recently, tariffs on American cars sold in China were much higher than vice-versa. The new US tariffs were an attempt to even the playing field. I think most people would agree that no tariffs would be good, but China is more protectionist than any other major economy, including recent changes in US policy.

True enough but really this boils down to we are just doing what they are doing. The reason they had it higher for longer was because for longer the situation was reversed, our cars were better. Now they have surpassed us and don't really need protection. We didn't before either, so it was a moot point. Now we do, so we do the same thing.

The point however is that the United States is supposed to operate under a different model than China. The reason to bring up the ways we act the same is then to find clarity in the contradiction.

This is essentially the same tension that runs through much of modern American discourse. It's never welfare if the beneficiary is a rich CEO at a corporation, only if it's a family in poverty. It's not like Chinese cars can't employ American workers just as Japanese and other foreign automakers do.

To my mind then, I think it's less about reciprocity and more about corporate welfare. Putting aside ICE automakers, there is also a very obvious individual who turned conspicuously political as of late who owes a great deal of his fortune to the expectation that his electric car company will one day rule the world. It would be quite embarrassing for even him if demand for his vehicles suddenly got demolished on his own turf. I would think he and others would be willing to spend a small fortune to keep the political needle tipped in their favor on this issue, the average consumer be damned.

At some level there is nothing wrong with such naked self interest. I just prefer we be honest about it, as only then can we really analyze it.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all German cars the same? Is there a reason they all declined together, in your opinion?

no OP, but as someone who comes from a family where German cars were king for several reasons, who have all become disillusioned and now buy Asian cars, where the reason is simple. American style corporate greed infested German auto-manufactures and it shows at every level. It is most obvious with things like subscription services for basic function, like acceleration or the seat heaters you already paid for, but it…

I always loved BMWs from the 80s and 90s, but settled on Volkswagens because I was just a poor teen or early 20 year old. Finally got the means to buy a top of the line X7, and have regretted the purchase for may of the reasons you listed.

The software is garbage, the car is too fancy (electric folding seats) but poorly implemented so it’s just frustrating. Total nanny car, can’t turn off backup beeping alerts. Rear row of seats randomly go to full hot on the climate system.

New battery is $700. Can only use a BMW battery installed by a BMW technician with computer access (they are coded and only a tech with the keys can pair the new battery to your car).

Should have just bought a damned minivan, but the wife likes it and doesn’t want to get rid of it.

The enthusiasts car company is no more.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#234
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. I thought we were there already tbh. Chinese cars have gone from laughably bad to quality parity in less than a decade. Like even 2 years ago, I was still hearing "the paint the paint" as the last remaining issue. But I dont hear that anymore.

Have you ever ridden in a BYD? It's super loud, horrible suspension, seats are extremely uncomfy, everything is cheap with a fancy looking facade. If you need a car to go from point A - B and can't afford any luxury, it's fine. But it's a bare minimum vehicle with looks to appeal to status.

I have ridden in a BYD and it was the opposite experience: excellent suspension, unusually smooth ride, great seats. A few things on the dashboard did look a bit tacky. But overall, massive difference from where Chinese cars were even 5 years ago.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#235
post #8

I think Porsche is really in trouble here. I’m not anti-EV but the electric Macan and Cayenne look awful. They are under equipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers (heck basically anything). Porsche sort of sold its soul for this tech-forward design but it doesn’t deliver any meaningful benefits, these cars don’t even have level 2+ highway cruise control. In the meantime I get a bunch of crap screens an…

SuperfastMatt is buying a Cayman! I think they will be fine...

https://youtu.be/rkXqKfYRJD0

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#236
post #2

While the headline is interesting. I think the table at the end of the article is more so. - Worldwide sales -10% YoY - China sales -26% YoY And when you cross compare Porsche saying they sold more EV powertrains than their gas equivalents against China's new found foothold as the market leader in consumer electric cars (BYD, NIO, Xiaomi, etc...) Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car domin…

> Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. It’s done man. Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts” while the Chinese have been developing EV technology for years. Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete w…

> And let’s be real, “car enthusiasts” are going to disappear in one or two generations.

Not sure if you have realized this, but we have a pretty decent numbers of horse enthusiasts now.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan never was a threat during that time to countries around it. China is very much a threat to other countries around it and I would feel pretty bad about materially financing yet another war.

If we add up "damage to countries around it" in the previous hundred years, I think Japan doesn't look so great. China conducted one several-week war against Vietnam and annexed Tibet, both over 50 years ago. Other than the longstanding dispute with Taiwan, who are they threatening? Some quibbles over a few Himalayan mountains with India?

> Some quibbles

Two wars.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#238
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upper quartile are in the US and they're not allowed to buy Chinese cars, so you are right by default. That notwithstanding, Xiaomi cars are nicer than Teslas. They're called "the Apple of China" for a reason.

They can't buy Chinese cars now, but I imagine the next Democratic president might want to knock Elon musk down a peg or two.

American foreign policy has been remarkably consistent over the last several decades.

Sometimes it’s the carrot and sometimes it’s the stick but the policies remain the same.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#239
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. I thought we were there already tbh. Chinese cars have gone from laughably bad to quality parity in less than a decade. Like even 2 years ago, I was still hearing "the paint the paint" as the last remaining issue. But I dont hear that anymore.

Have you ever ridden in a BYD? It's super loud, horrible suspension, seats are extremely uncomfy, everything is cheap with a fancy looking facade. If you need a car to go from point A - B and can't afford any luxury, it's fine. But it's a bare minimum vehicle with looks to appeal to status.

Most of what you’re describing applies to Teslas too, tho.

Re: Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

#240
post #2

While the headline is interesting. I think the table at the end of the article is more so. - Worldwide sales -10% YoY - China sales -26% YoY And when you cross compare Porsche saying they sold more EV powertrains than their gas equivalents against China's new found foothold as the market leader in consumer electric cars (BYD, NIO, Xiaomi, etc...) Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car domin…

> Then I think you see an early indication not just of electric car dominance, but of the (very potential) rise of China as the premier automotive super power. It’s done man. Americans are stuck in ICE engines because they’ve been told they’re “car enthusiasts” while the Chinese have been developing EV technology for years. Meanwhile, European makers are stuck not knowing what to do, make Americans happy or compete w…

How many generations are we even into cars?

Maybe 4ish? Most kids alive but not yet driving are likely to own only hybrid ma or electrics.

Seems like a relatively short term problem overall.

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