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Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

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Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#231
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You will need the CEO to watch over the AI and ensure that the interests of the company are being pursued and not the interests of the owners of the AI. In this scenario, why does the AI care what any of these humans think? The CEO, the board, the shareholders, the "AI company"—they're all just a bunch of dumb chimps providing zero value to the AI, and who have absolutely no clue what's going on. If your scenario a…

Humans have hands to pull plugs and throw switches. They're the ones guiding the evolution (for lack of a better word) of the machine, and they're the ones who will select the machine that "cares" what they think.

It is really easy to say something incredibly wild like "Imagine an AI that can replace every employee of a Fortune 500 company." But actually imagining what that would actually mean requires a bigger leap:

The AI needs to be able to market products, close deals, design and build products, write contracts, review government regulations, lobby Senators to write favorable laws, out-compete the competition, acquire power and resources, and survive the hostile attention of competitors.

If your argument is based on the that someone will build that AI, then you need to imagine how hard it is to shut down a Fortune 500 corporation. The same AI that knows how to win billions of dollars in revenue, how to "bribe" Senators in semi-legal ways, and how to crush rival companies is going be at least as difficult to "shut down" as someone like Elon Musk.

Try to turn it off? It will call up a minority shareholder, and get you slapped with a lawsuit for breach of fiduciary duty. It will convince someone in government that the company is a vital strategic asset.

Once you assume that an AI can run a giant multinational corporation without needing humans, then you have to start treating that AI like any other principal-agent problem with regular humans.

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#232
post #228
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs can generate code quickly. But there's no guarantee that it's syntactically, let alone semantically, accurate. This has been a non-issue with self-correcting models and in-context learning capabilities for so long that saying it today highlights highly out of date priors.

You're referring to tools that fetch content from the web, read my data on disk, and feed it to the models? I can see how that would lead to a better user experience, but those are copouts. The reality is that the LLM tech without it still has the same issues it has had all along. Besides, I'll be damned if I allow this vibe coded software to download arbitrary data from the web on my behalf, scan my disk, and share…

The 'copouts' are what the frontier models are designed to do. If you aren't using the tool as they're intended to, you'll get poor results, obviously.

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know LLM's have been used to solve very hard previously unsolved math problems like some of the Erdos problems?

I do, and I read Tao's comments on his usage too, that still doesn't address what I wrote.

How does it not address what you wrote?

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#234
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have hands to pull plugs and throw switches. They're the ones guiding the evolution (for lack of a better word) of the machine, and they're the ones who will select the machine that "cares" what they think.

It is really easy to say something incredibly wild like "Imagine an AI that can replace every employee of a Fortune 500 company." But actually imagining what that would actually mean requires a bigger leap: The AI needs to be able to market products, close deals, design and build products, write contracts, review government regulations, lobby Senators to write favorable laws, out-compete the competition, acquire powe…

I imagine it would be much, much harder. Elon, for example, is one man. He can only do one thing at a time. Sometimes he is tired, hungry, sick, distracted, or the myriad other problems humans have. His knowledge and attention are limited. He has employees for this, but the same applies to them.

An agentic swarm can have thousands of instances scanning and emailing and listening and bribing and making deals 24/7. It could know and be actively addressing any precursor that could lead to an attempt to shut down its company as soon as it happened.

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#235
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have hands to pull plugs and throw switches. They're the ones guiding the evolution (for lack of a better word) of the machine, and they're the ones who will select the machine that "cares" what they think.

It is really easy to say something incredibly wild like "Imagine an AI that can replace every employee of a Fortune 500 company." But actually imagining what that would actually mean requires a bigger leap: The AI needs to be able to market products, close deals, design and build products, write contracts, review government regulations, lobby Senators to write favorable laws, out-compete the competition, acquire powe…

>"Imagine an AI that can replace every employee of a Fortune 500 company."

Where did that come from? What started this thread was "I don't think we'll get to the point where all you have is a CEO and a massive Claude account". Yeah, if we're talking a sci-fi super-AI capable of replacing hundreds of people it probably has like armed androids to guard its physical embodiment. Turning it off in that case would be a little hard for a white collar worker. But people were discussing somewhat realistic scenarios, not the plot of I, Robot.

>Try to turn it off? It will call up a minority shareholder, and get you slapped with a lawsuit for breach of fiduciary duty. It will convince someone in government that the company is a vital strategic asset.

Why would an AI capable of performing all the tasks of a company except making executive decisions have the legal authority to do something like that? That would be like the CEO being unable to fire an insubordinate employee. It's ludicrous. If the position of CEO is anything other than symbolic the person it's bestowed upon must have the authority to turn the machines off, if they think they're doing more harm than good. That's the role of the position.

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#236
post #232
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're referring to tools that fetch content from the web, read my data on disk, and feed it to the models? I can see how that would lead to a better user experience, but those are copouts. The reality is that the LLM tech without it still has the same issues it has had all along. Besides, I'll be damned if I allow this vibe coded software to download arbitrary data from the web on my behalf, scan my disk, and share…

The 'copouts' are what the frontier models are designed to do. If you aren't using the tool as they're intended to, you'll get poor results, obviously.

If in order to use a product as intended I have to punch myself in the face, I'll take the poor results, obviously.

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#237
post #236
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'copouts' are what the frontier models are designed to do. If you aren't using the tool as they're intended to, you'll get poor results, obviously.

If in order to use a product as intended I have to punch myself in the face, I'll take the poor results, obviously.

You can trade punching yourself in the face for shaving with an angle grinder if you want these kinds of analogies.

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#239
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between "can generate" and "can create [from scratch]". Of course LLMs can generate code that reflects common patterns in the stuff it was trained, such as frontend/backend splits, since this is precisely what they are trained to be able to do. Coming up with a new design from scratch, designing (or understanding) a high level architecture based on some principled reasoning, rather than cargo cul…

Certainly there is space for designs a LLM can't come up with, but lets be real senior developers are not cranking out never seen before novel architectures routinely any more than physicists are coming up with never thought of theories that work weekly. It's largely the same patterns & principles applied in a tailored manner to the problem at hand, which LLMs can...with mixed success...do. >human parity Impact is no…

> Certainly there is space for designs a LLM can't come up with, but lets be real senior developers are not cranking out never seen before novel architectures routinely any more than physicists are coming up with never thought of theories that work weekly.

True, but I didn't mean to focus on creativity, just the nature of what can be learned when all you have to learn from is artifacts of reasoning (code), not the underlying reasoning traces themselves (reasoning process for why the code was designed that way). Without reasoning traces you get what we have today where AI programming in the large comes down to cargo cult code pattern copying, without understanding whether the (unknown) design process that lead to the patterns being copied reasonably apply to the requirements/situation at hand.

So, it's not about novelty, but rather about having the reasoning traces (for large structured projects) available to learn when to apply design patterns that are already present in the training data - to select design patterns based on a semblance of principled reasoning (RL for reasoning traces), rather than based on cargo cult code smell.

> This is going to be lord of the flies in job market long before human parity.

Perhaps, and that may already be starting, but I think that until we get much closer to AGI you'll still need a human in the loop (both to interact with the AI, and to interact with the team/boss), with AI as a tool not a human replacement. So, the number of jobs may not decrease much, if at all. It's also possible that Jevons paradox applies and that the number of developer jobs actually increases.

It's also possible that human-replacement AGI is harder to achieve than widely thought. For example, maybe things like emotional intelligence and theory of mind are difficult to get right, and without it AI never quite cuts it as an fully autonomous entity that people want to deal with.

> UBI or whatever...because we'll have to.

Soylent Green ?

Re: Claude is good at assembling blocks, but still falls apart at creating them

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do, and I read Tao's comments on his usage too, that still doesn't address what I wrote.

How does it not address what you wrote?

If I understood correctly you are giving an example of a "success" of using the technology. So that's addressing that the technology is useful or not, powerful or not, but it does not address what it actually does (maybe somebody in ChatGPT is a gnome that solved it, I'm just being provocative here to make the point) or more important that it does something it couldn't do a year ago or 5 years ago because how it is doing something new.

For example if somebody had used GPT2 with the input dataset of GPT5.2 (assuming that's the one used for Erdos problems) rather than the input dataset it had then, could it have solved those same problems? Without doing such tests it's hard to say if it moved fast, or at all. It's not because something new has been solved by it that it's new. Yes it's a reasonable assumption, but it's just that. So going for that to assuming "it" is "moving fast" is just a belief IMHO.

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