Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

ablg.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 361 posts

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#231

Post by bob001 »

array_key_first wrote: post #174
al_borland wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, but the union would likely end up capping their salary much lower so the wealth can be spread around. How hard is the 10x engineer on the team going to work when the compensation is the same regardless? This is where people end up working multiple jobs, if they can keep up with their peers only working one day per week.

I think the truth is that there really isn't 10xers, and that's more or less a propaganda technique to get people to crab bucket each other. Of course everyone likes to think they're santa's special engineer, so they don't need hurdles like protections and a level playing field. But, simultaneously, the industry has been doing everything in its power to make engineers as fungible as possible. The "wet dream" is to ma…

There are those who can provide 10x output in certain kinds of problems. Either due to experience or however their minds work. If their output is as a tech lead then even a 2x can provide an overall 10x increase through second order impact via their team. There are also those who provide 0.5x and 0.1x output on a wide range of problems.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#232

Post by bob001 »

KittenInABox wrote: post #147
al_borland wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, but the union would likely end up capping their salary much lower so the wealth can be spread around. How hard is the 10x engineer on the team going to work when the compensation is the same regardless? This is where people end up working multiple jobs, if they can keep up with their peers only working one day per week.

Couldn't unions just follow actors' guilds and the like where there are no salary caps?

It's not your choice. It's the choice of the average union member.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#233

Post by boobsbr »

xkbarkar wrote: post #190
johnfn wrote: post #156

> Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books. This seems entirely false to me. To be honest it is so incorrect it significantly puts into question the rest of the article. 1. I have absolutely had managers motivate me to work harder. I have also had managers completely demotivate me and cause me to quit. How on earth can anyone who has worked in the industry for…

I have experienced both. I d argue its not the manager that motivates people that can only be found inbooks. Its the manager that can come in and mend a toxic and dysfunctional team. The toxic teams end up breaking good managers in the end and they either become part of the problem or leave. The hero manager described in the phoenix project is a myth. The motivational one imho is very real but they need a good platfo…

In my experience, no manager can fix a toxic, dysfunctional team.

That team is doomed and the best course of action is to disband it and let the worst people go.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#234

Post by bob001 »

Muromec wrote: post #206
bob001 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently American engineers made a lot of money at comparatively cushy jobs. A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat.

>A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat. So... 500k is the normal pay and 2.5mil is the staff+ pay, right? How many people you know actually make that?

I was talking about the good days over the last decade and not now. As someone noted Europe made $50-80k. So around $250-400k. I knew a ton that made that. Basically anyone above junior at a tech company including late stage startups and second tier tech companies. Fully remote in many cases. At Staff+ FAANG if you were there a couple years then your RSUs would very likely push you above $1m and possibly above $2m. I think the most I heard of was someone making $10m/year and being deathly afraid of a layoff. Nowadays its AI companies which if you're lucky enough to get into and know ML will pay $2m+/year as your comp even at merely staff levels. If the bubble doesn't burst before IPOs then I know ICs whose next few generations won't need to work.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#235

Post by Muromec »

bob001 wrote: post #234
Muromec wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat. So... 500k is the normal pay and 2.5mil is the staff+ pay, right? How many people you know actually make that?

I was talking about the good days over the last decade and not now. As someone noted Europe made $50-80k. So around $250-400k. I knew a ton that made that. Basically anyone above junior at a tech company including late stage startups and second tier tech companies. Fully remote in many cases. At Staff+ FAANG if you were there a couple years then your RSUs would very likely push you above $1m and possibly above $2m. I…

If you talk about before AI bullshit started, the numbers kinda make sense actually.

>I think the most I heard of was someone making $10m/year and being deathly afraid of a layoff.

Jeez, some people.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#236

Post by philipallstar »

ragall wrote: post #230
ljm wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It stands to reason that if a manager can demotivate you, then they must be able to do the opposite. Both building the vibe and killing it can achieve that in terms of extrinsic motivation, culture, the psychological contract, and so on. These are important factors to consider for people who work in highly collaborative teams as opposed to those who prefer to be 10x lone wolves, which is the impression I get fro…

> It stands to reason that if a manager can demotivate you, then they must be able to do the opposite. You share that with no justification. There's no such "reason".

> There's no such "reason"

You share that with no justification.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#237

Post by zipy124 »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #220
TuxSH wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE rarely earn $100k gross/yr TC in Western European nations. It's closer to $50k~$80k in many cases.

It's higher in Poland lol.

Source?

Levels.fyi puts it at $67k median.

Glassdoor puts it at closer to $40k.

Neither of these are above the levels given above.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#238

Post by DarkNova6 »

al_borland wrote: post #53
bob001 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently American engineers made a lot of money at comparatively cushy jobs. A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat.

Not just that, but the union would likely end up capping their salary much lower so the wealth can be spread around. How hard is the 10x engineer on the team going to work when the compensation is the same regardless? This is where people end up working multiple jobs, if they can keep up with their peers only working one day per week.

What you are saying is that companies would want to pay theor employees more money, but they can’t because of unions.

Sorry, hard sell.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#239

Post by acdha »

bob001 wrote: post #231
array_key_first wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the truth is that there really isn't 10xers, and that's more or less a propaganda technique to get people to crab bucket each other. Of course everyone likes to think they're santa's special engineer, so they don't need hurdles like protections and a level playing field. But, simultaneously, the industry has been doing everything in its power to make engineers as fungible as possible. The "wet dream" is to ma…

There are those who can provide 10x output in certain kinds of problems. Either due to experience or however their minds work. If their output is as a tech lead then even a 2x can provide an overall 10x increase through second order impact via their team. There are also those who provide 0.5x and 0.1x output on a wide range of problems.

> If their output is as a tech lead then even a 2x can provide an overall 10x increase through second order impact via their team.

This is something the 10x mythology tends to leave out: there are a vanishingly few people who are significantly above the 90th percentile in terms of individual productivity but if the discussion shifted to team dynamics, that’s where you can actually see really big gains by helping a larger group be more productive.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#240

Post by acdha »

bob001 wrote: post #229
data-ottawa wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe workers would vote for a union to lower or cap their wages. That feels like a total straw man. In my experience unions suck when they overemphasize fairness over real world practicalities (see almost anything seniority based). They don't have to be that way.

There is a large pay disparity. Why wouldn't someone at the 50th percentile vote to have those at the 95th get lower salaries so the 50th percentile goes up a bit?

That’s not how unions work negotiations work, and the younger worker getting paid less is 100% thinking that they’ll be the senior guy some day.
Post reply on HN