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Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

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Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#231

Post by mpalmer »

testacc74 wrote: post #218
volkk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point do we ever ask ourselves -- "what kind of culture do we want to create for the future of our country?" I don't think a pro soccer player is comparable to an onlyfans contributor. I would much prefer my future kids to be inspired by Cristiano Ronaldo than someone baring themselves on camera.

I see no difference in Cristiano Ronaldo and a porn star and an influencer and whatever you name it. They are all idols that sell stories for people to project their own thoughts and desires onto and get emotional. I would be more worry about my kid believing in celebrities, regardless of who they are. And the American mainstream culture is filthy anyway. As the old French joke once said the difference of yogurt and…

In the interest of fairness, can you really say different about "mainstream" French culture?

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#232

Post by drdaeman »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #94
drdaeman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> exploited Isn’t that a derogatory stereotype? Aren’t those men (and women and other folks) as “exploited” as a reader of a book or a player of a game, who understands they’re about to be a part of a fantasy but willingly suspend the disbelief for a short while? It’s only exploitation if this suspension of disbelief is artificially prolonged in nefarious way, with a self-reinforcing fantasy so the person loses touch…

It should be stigmatized. Consent does not bless immoral acts or neutralize damage. A person who takes a drug voluntarily is still being harmed by it. It causes changes in the consumer whether he likes it or not. Causality does not care about your consent. (And to address your analogy to books, the content of a work of fiction also matters. Reading bad books isn't good for your mind either. But literary fiction at le…

> A person who takes a drug voluntarily is still being harmed by it. It causes changes in the consumer whether he likes it or not.

I’m afraid you’re oversimplifying it. If only things would be this simple. They just never are.

Every experience causes changes (it’s the whole point). And every stimulating experience has a potential to skew your behaviors towards having more of it. Some more, some less, of course, but anything can become a passion and get unhealthy so.

There’s this fine distinction between someone who does something now and then, without significant impairment to their decision-making abilities that cause over-favoring such actions, and those who fail to notice it in time and become overtly obsessed with something.

It’s not about what you do - you can be watching porn or going hiking (or whatever most people would naively deem “good”) - anything can become unhealthy.

I think I understand your point, though. Indeed, pornography consumption nature is intimate and that leaves less opportunities for feedback and self-introspection. That is, noticing the point it becomes more of an obsession. However, dismissing it under a simple “porn is bad” (a tempting idea) is short-sighted by dismissing any nuances, and also harmful - just in different ways (through stigmatization).

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#233

Post by areoform »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #73
areoform wrote: post #9

Such articles are interesting because they're tacit disapproval, but I would argue that this use of the O-1 is the most American way to use it. There's a reason why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2, https://goldenglobes.com/articles/exiles-and-emigres-hollywo... You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ. This is the future of culture. These people…

The argument from cinema is flaky and a moral critique of Hollywood's influence is unavoidable. But we're talking about porn here, not cinema. This is decadence and depravity. How can you confuse cinema with the construction of an international whoredom? The numbers are also incommensurate. And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumpti…

> Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society.

The walls of Pompeii beg to differ.

https://pompeiiarchaeologicalpark.com/social-norms-and-eroti...

https://mariasorensen.substack.com/p/the-forbidden-erotic-ar...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a627393...

I am sure there would have been people at the time decrying the creation of pigments and paints as the fall of civilization due to "decadence and depravity." Didn't matter much, did it?

> We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly

Plato was a wrestler. Plato would like totally be a gym bro, bro.

It has been a while since I've read Republic, but I remember Book 8 differently. To quote the IEP,

   Tyranny arises out of democracy when the desire for freedom to do what one wants becomes extreme (562b-c).  The freedom or license aimed at in the democracy becomes so extreme that any limitations on anyone’s freedom seem unfair.  Socrates points out that when freedom is taken to such an extreme it produces its opposite, slavery (563e-564a).  The tyrant comes about by presenting himself as a champion of the people against the class of the few people who are wealthy (565d-566a).  The tyrant is forced to commit a number of acts to gain and retain power: accuse people falsely, attack his kinsmen, bring people to trial under false pretenses, kill many people, exile many people, and purport to cancel the debts of the poor to gain their support (565e-566a).  The tyrant eliminates the rich, brave, and wise people in the city since he perceives them as threats to his power (567c).  Socrates indicates that the tyrant faces the dilemma to either live with worthless people or with good people who may eventually depose him and chooses to live with worthless people (567d).  The tyrant ends up using mercenaries as his guards since he cannot trust any of the citizens (567d-e).  The tyrant also needs a very large army and will spend the city’s money (568d-e), and will not hesitate to kill members of his own family if they resist his ways (569b-c).
This summary matches my recollection more closely than yours. Could you please quote primary sources on what exactly you mean by "Plato's description of social decline?"

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#234

Post by [deleted] »

nozzlegear wrote: post #229
password54321 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do that for free. Most are obviously looking for more. It kind of sounds like you are trying to justify whatever it is you are doing, in which case you do you. I don't actually care what you do and neither should you care what I think.

> You could do that for free. Most are obviously looking for more. And everyone can use Pornhub for free, yet Pornhub still makes money on their premium subscriptions. Are those also parasocial relationships? > It kind of sounds like you are trying to justify whatever it is you are doing, in which case you do you. You know I thought about putting the obligatory "I don't use OF" in my first comment, but felt it wouldn…

[deleted]

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#235

Post by volkk »

ryandrake wrote: post #144
volkk wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe the rigidity of the comparisons matter within the broad context of my point. Regardless of whether OP didn't directly compare pro soccer to OF, the point is that allowing the degradation of expectations of Visas will only incentivize low effort crap. And yes, one can sit here and argue all day that OF fans, or TikTok creators are the same thing as Victorias secret models or Cinematic actors (and I wou…

I think before we suggest whether policy is good or bad, we need to agree on the meaning of vague terms like "societal erosion." What about society is eroding? You mention IQ and literacy. What about tolerance, open-mindedness, compassion, equality, financial success... Some of these things are going up and some are going down. Are there other dimension to "societal erosion?"

i do think it's important to define what a healthy society looks like, but I'm going to guess everyone will have a very different answer. It's a topic that likely doesn't have any kind of straightforward response with unanimous agreement.

I would argue that beyond basics like food, shelter and protection of human rights, we should strive for more noble pursuits as society. I'm not even religious whatsoever, but I think the proliferation of certain vices like sex/gambling/drugs is probably a net negative for society. They certainly have their roles in the long tail, but overall a society that is caught up in rampant dopamine chasing is a distracted, doomed society. We should always be yearning. We should be paving a road that is a better one for our future generations. Societal erosion is creating short term profit/happiness at the expense of long term thinking. America has become the king of this. You can see it everywhere, from the types of businesses people create (e.g pyramid schemes in the form of courses, or the shovel makers that create businesses to proliferate said pyramid schemes) to what is currently valued by the growing generation. I can keep going and going, but I'll leave it here. I hope I somewhat made my point. I'm sure many will disagree, and that is why this country is on its way downwards. The few smart will own and create a lot of value for themselves, we'll likely have a few trillionaires, and the majority will be bumbling idiots that can barely read. We're not there yet, but we're well on the way there

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#236

Post by amelius »

bluescrn wrote: post #197
XorNot wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with an OnlyFans contributor? It's a self-employed job that services a demand within the economy and pays taxes. It's pretty close to the ideal job an immigrant can have since the product is already globalized but the revenue is not - i.e. an OnlyFans influencer with an American audience who moves to America is now bringing that income back into the economy via taxes and spending, or if they have an inte…

Extracting money from horny young men with an illusion of intimacy/friendship just doesn't seem ethical. Or good for society as a whole. Especially when you've got streamers using sites like Twitch, aimed at younger gamers, promoting their OnlyFans porn. The regular porn industry is bad enough ( https://traffickinghub.com/ ), but at least the content is non-interactive, there's no pretence of friendship/connection.

Most users understand that there is no real friendship.

Just like people understand that the violence in movies is fake.

What makes an onlyfans contributor worse than an actor in a violent movie?

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#237

Post by testacc74 »

mpalmer wrote: post #231
testacc74 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no difference in Cristiano Ronaldo and a porn star and an influencer and whatever you name it. They are all idols that sell stories for people to project their own thoughts and desires onto and get emotional. I would be more worry about my kid believing in celebrities, regardless of who they are. And the American mainstream culture is filthy anyway. As the old French joke once said the difference of yogurt and…

In the interest of fairness, can you really say different about "mainstream" French culture?

Well I don't know much about French aside from the joke but Cannes obviously has way better taste than Hollywood.

The neat part is, with social media and global internet, culture are generally degenerating regardless of countries. If I were American citizen(gladly Im not) I might as well just let them in to get some tax money, and potentially see if the industry can be used as a soft propaganda machine. Just like Hollywood.

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#238

Post by saalweachter »

jitbit wrote: post #176

The title is misleading. It says “dominating” however no sources or percentages are provided. And later in the article it only says “increasingly applying”, with just two examples. I do have a friend (very popular drummer-YouTuber who makes covers, has millions of subs) who did get an O visa because he actually is a, kinda, celebrity, so I guess this is indeed happening occasionally. But nothing is being “dominated”…

I would also note that, even if the title is accurate, and (say) 90% of applications are from social media influencers, it doesn't even make a claim about how many are granted. It could be that countless influencers are applying... and being rejected.

Re: Influencers and OnlyFans models are dominating U.S. O-1 visa requests

#240

Post by tehlike »

ndriscoll wrote: post #44
superfrank wrote: post #10

It's funny, early on it says > The O-1 category includes the O-1A, which is designated for individuals with extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business or athletics and the O-1B, reserved for those with “extraordinary ability or achievement”. Then later it says > The O-1B visa, once reserved for Hollywood titans and superstar musicians, has evolved over the years. I understand those two aren't necessar…

It's not "just entertainment". We want extraordinary athletes and musicians to inspire people and show them what humans are capable of. Extraordinary prostitutes are generally not inspiring people in the way that most people probably would like society to move. It's fine to place different amounts of cultural value on these things and not remain neutral about the worth of all possible human endeavors. When someone de…

+1. While supreme court defines the likes of porn as freedom of expression, it's a different thing for a country to want different kinds of professions to be more common through its immigration system.
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