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BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

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Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#231

Are you serious, a car with Lidar sensor that's not even available in Bugatti Tourbillon that cost 500x more? Joking aside, this BYD Seagull, or Atto 1 in Australia (AUD$24K) and Dolphin Surf in Europe (£18K in the UK), is one the cheapest EV cars in the world and selling at around £6K in China. It's priced double in Australia and triple in the UK compared to its original price in China. It's also one of China best s…

Being literally the worst human rights violator makes it easy to be cheap

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> camera+LIDAR It's like having 2 pilots instead of 1 pilot. If one pilot is unexpectedly defective (has a heart attack mid-flight), you still have the other pilot. Some errors between the 2 pilots aren't uncorrelated of course, but many of them are. So the chance of an at-fault crash goes from p and approaches p^2 in the best case. That's an unintuitively large improvement. Many laypeople's gut instinct would be mor…

"In the camera+LIDAR case, you conceptually require AND(x.ok for all x) before you accelerate." This can be learnt by the model. Let's assume vision is 100% correct, the model would learn to ignore LIDAR, so the worst case scenario is that LIDAR is extra cost for zero benefit.

> Let's assume vision is 100% correct

This is not going to be true for a very long time, at least so long as one's definition of "vision" is something like "low-cost passive planar high-resolution imaging sensors sensitive to the visual and IR spectrum" (I include "low-cost" on the basis that while SWIR, MWIR, and LWIR sensors do provide useful capabilities for self-driving applications, they are often equally expensive, if not much more so, than LIDARs). Camera sensors have gotten quite good, but they are still fundamentally much less capable than the human eyes plus visual cortex in terms of useful dynamic range, motion sensitivity, and depth cues - and human eyes regularly encounter driving conditions which interfere or prohibit safe driving (e.g. mist/ fog, heavy rain/snow, blowing sand/dust, low-angle sunlight at sunrise/sunset/winter). One of the best features of LIDAR is that it is either immune or much less sensitive to these phenomena at the ranges we care about for driving.

Of course, LIDAR is not without its own failings, and the ideal system really is one that combines cameras, LIDARs, and RADARs. The problem there is that building automotive RADAR with sufficient spatial resolution to reliably discriminate between stationary obstacles (e.g. a car stalled ahead) and nearby clutter (e.g. a bridge above the road) is something of an unsolved problem.

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#233
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of one example where something similar works. The requirements from insurance companies on airline pilots are considerable tougher than the government ones because they are on the hook for ~$200m if they crash. A big reason car companies don't worry much about killing pedestrians at the moment is it costs them ~$0.

You clearly haven't lived in my city :). About half our road fatalities are pedestrians. About 80% of those are intoxicated with alcohol. When you're driving at 40mph, at night, and some drunk guy chooses to cross the road, no amount of safety features or liabilities can save him. Sure, cars can be safer for light collisions with pedestrians where the car is going slowly. Especially in the US where half the cars have…

I wonder how a Waymo would do with your drunks? Really the answer for that is probably more a different road layout so the drinking is separate from the traffic. I live near Soho in London which is full of drunk people in the streets but most traffic is blocked off there or doing 10 mph.

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#234
My present car is 18 years (and, other than 2 non functioning buttons that I decided I didn’t want to pay to replace), working perfectly fine.

And, I should say, I’m a terrible owner. This car had (at most) 10 maintenance checks (and oil changes) in its life. Emphasis in “at most”.

I intend to buy a new one in about 3 years and there’s no chance in hell I’m going for something shiny that breaks after 5 years like this fully made in China stuff (even Teslas are cumbersome to maintain according to statistics).

I want a car to last at least 15 years with very little servicing, not some disposable tech gadget that I can’t be sure it will work next month without some shop time.

P.S. The car is a Mazda 2.

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#235
post #87

Lidars come down in price ~40x. https://cleantechnica.com/2025/03/20/lidars-wicked-cost-drop... Meanwhile visible light based tech is going up in price due to competing with ai on the extra gpu need while lidar gets the range/depth side of things for free. Ideally cars use both but if you had to choose one or the other for cost you’d be insane to choose vision over lidar. Musk made an ill timed decision to go vision…

Given a good proportion of his success has rested on somehow simplifying or commodifying existing expensive technology (e.g. rockets, and lots of the technology needed to make them; EV batteries) it's surprising that Musk's response to lidar being (at the time) very expensive was to avoid it despite the additional challenges that this brought, rather than attempt to carve a moat by innovating and creating cheaper and…

It's the same with his humanoid robot. Instead of building yet another useless hype machine, why not simply do vertical integration and build your own robot arms? You have a guaranteed customer (yourself) and once you have figured out the design, you can start selling to external customers.

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> camera+LIDAR It's like having 2 pilots instead of 1 pilot. If one pilot is unexpectedly defective (has a heart attack mid-flight), you still have the other pilot. Some errors between the 2 pilots aren't uncorrelated of course, but many of them are. So the chance of an at-fault crash goes from p and approaches p^2 in the best case. That's an unintuitively large improvement. Many laypeople's gut instinct would be mor…

"In the camera+LIDAR case, you conceptually require AND(x.ok for all x) before you accelerate." This can be learnt by the model. Let's assume vision is 100% correct, the model would learn to ignore LIDAR, so the worst case scenario is that LIDAR is extra cost for zero benefit.

The worst case scenario is that LIDAR is a rapidly falling extra cost for zero benefit? Sounds like it's a good idea to invest into cheap LIDAR just in case the worst case doesn't happen. Even better, you can get a head start by investing in the solution early and abandon it when it has obsolete.

By the way, Tesla engineers secretly trained their vision systems using LIDAR data because that's how you get training data. When Elon Musk found out, he fired them.

Finally, your premise is nonsensical. Using end to end learning for self driving sounds batshit crazy to me. Traffic rules are very rigid and differ depending on the location. Tesla's self driving solution gets you ticketed for traffic violations in China. Machine learning is generally used to "parse" the sensor output into a machine representation and then classical algorithms do most of the work.

The rationale for being against LIDAR seems to be "Elon Musk said LIDAR is bad" and is not based on any deficiency in LIDAR technology.

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who gets the ticket when a self-driving car is at fault?

> who gets the ticket when a self-driving car is at fault? Whoever was in control. This isn’t some weird legal quagmire anymore, these cars are on the road.

The point of self driving is that the car is in control. Are you going to send the car to car prison?

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#239
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update, it is vaporware lol. Just announced today they are canceling it.

Links? The most recent one is: https://media.mbusa.com/releases/release-4889b1d1c66cddc7120...

They canceled the Drive Pilot L3, which is fully autonomous with zero driver intervention (approved by the government), because the software isn't there yet due to the hand off problem. They are still working on making it work at 130km/h on the highways. The problem with a zero driver intervention system is that the driver isn't guaranteed to pay attention when the mode is no longer applicable and the mode switch is only obvious on the highway when exiting, but the L3 system doesn't support highway driving speeds yet.

I'm not talking about some Tesla style last second bullshit where you're supposed to compensate for the deficiencies of the system that supposedly can do the full journey. I mean a route like L2->L3->L2 where L2 is human supervised autonomous driving and L3 is autonomous driving with zero intervention. You can't tell people they're allowed to drink a coffee and then one minute later tell them to supervise the driving.

Re: BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies, I was unclear with the "i.e." bit I assume, to spell it out: I think after struggling with it over years its time to call it because Waymo has a scaled paid service, no drivers, multiple cities, for 1 year+.

But I told you it wasn't without drivers, so where is the response there or acknowledgment of the fact they all went down?

This is such a weird take when Elon Musk is still letting his Optimus robots be teleoperated for basically every live demo. If you're lenient with him, it's completely unreasonable to be strict with Waymo, which works autonomously the vast majority of time.
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