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Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

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Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#231

I don't know how many others here have a CoPilot+ PC but the NPU on it is basically useless. There isn't any meaningful feature I get by having that NPU. They are far too limited to ever do any meaningful local LLM inference, image processing or generation. It handles stuff like video chat background blurring, but users' PC's have been doing that for years now without an NPU.

I'd love to see a thorough breakdown of what these local NPUs can really do. I've had friends ask me about this (as the resident computer expert) and I really have no idea. Everything I see advertised for (blurring, speech to text, etc...) are all things that I never felt like my non-NPU machine struggled with. Is there a single remotely killer application for local client NPUs?

In theory NPUs are a cheap, efficient alternative to the GPU for getting good speeds out of larger neural nets. In practice they're rarely used because for simple tasks like blurring, speech to text, noise cancellation, etc you can get usually do it on the CPU just fine. For power users doing really hefty stuff they usually have a GPU anyway so that gets used because it's typically much faster. That's exactly what happens with my AMD AI Max 395+ board. I thought maybe the GPU and NPU could work in parallel but memory limitations mean that's often slower than just using the GPU alone. I think I read that their intended use case for the NPU is background tasks when the GPU is already loaded but that seems like a very niche use case.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#232

I don't know how many others here have a CoPilot+ PC but the NPU on it is basically useless. There isn't any meaningful feature I get by having that NPU. They are far too limited to ever do any meaningful local LLM inference, image processing or generation. It handles stuff like video chat background blurring, but users' PC's have been doing that for years now without an NPU.

Question - from the perspective of the actual silicon, are these NPUs just another form of SIMD? If so, that's laughable sleight of hand and the circuits will be relegated to some mothball footnote in the same manner as AVX512, etc.

To be fair, SIMD made a massive difference for early multimedia PCs for things like music playback, gaming, and composited UIs.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#233
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will want what LLMs can do they just don't want "AI". I think having it pervade products in a much more subtle way is the future though. For example, if you close a youtube browser tab with a comment half written it will pop up an `alert("You will lose your comment if you close this window")`. It does this if the comment is a 2 page essay or "asdfasdf". Ideally the alert would only happen if the comment seemed…

> Ideally the alert would only happen if the comment seemed important but it would readily discard short or nonsensical input. That is really difficult to do in traditional software but is something an LLM could do with low effort. I read this post yesterday and this specific example kept coming back to me because something about it just didn't sit right. And I finally figured it out: Glancing at the alert box (or th…

It’s also trivially solvable with idk, a length check, or any number of other things which don’t need to 100b parameters to calculate.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh it's been the same in Windows PCs since forever. Like MMX in the Pentium 1 days - was marketed as basically essential for anything "multimedia" but provided somewhat between no and minimal speedup (v little software was compiled for it). It's quite similar with Apple's neural engine, which afiak is used very little for LLMs, even for coreML. I know I don't think I ever saw it being used in asitop. And I'm sure wh…

I have to disagree with you about MMX. It's possible a lot of software didn't target it explicitly but on Windows MMX was very widely used as it was integrated into DirectX, ffmpeg, GDI, the initial MP3 libraries (l3codeca which was used by Winamp and other popular MP3 players) and the popular DIVX video codec.

MMX had a chicken/egg problem; it did take awhile to "take off" so early adopters really didn't see much from it, but by the time it was commonplace it was doing some work.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see a thorough breakdown of what these local NPUs can really do. I've had friends ask me about this (as the resident computer expert) and I really have no idea. Everything I see advertised for (blurring, speech to text, etc...) are all things that I never felt like my non-NPU machine struggled with. Is there a single remotely killer application for local client NPUs?

"WHAT IS MY PURPOSE?" "You multiply matrices of INT8s." "OH... MY... GOD" NPUs really just accelerate low-precision matmuls. A lot of them are based on systolic arrays, which are like a configurable pipeline through which data is "pumped" rather than a general purpose CPU or GPU with random memory access. So they're a bit like the "synergistic" processors in the Cell, in the respect that they accelerate some operatio…

[flagged]

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#236

They still ship their laptops with the Copilot key. Once that is removed then their statement will follow their actions.

I'd be surprised if Microsoft would sell them Windows licenses or would work with them on drivers if they don't put the Copilot key on the keyboard.

What is with Microsoft and demanding a key for every new thing they come up with?

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh it's been the same in Windows PCs since forever. Like MMX in the Pentium 1 days - was marketed as basically essential for anything "multimedia" but provided somewhat between no and minimal speedup (v little software was compiled for it). It's quite similar with Apple's neural engine, which afiak is used very little for LLMs, even for coreML. I know I don't think I ever saw it being used in asitop. And I'm sure wh…

Apple's neural engine is used a lot by the non-LLM ML tasks all over the system like facial recognition in photos and the like. The point of it isn't to be some beefy AI co-processor but to be a low-power accelerator for background ML workloads. The same workloads could use the GPU but it's more general purpose and thus uses more power for the same task. The same reason macOS uses hardware acceleration for video code…

Yes of course but it's basically a waste of silicon (which is very valuable) imo - you save a handful of watts to do very few tasks. I would be surprised if in the length of my MacBook the NPU has been utilised more than 1% of the time the system is being used.

You still need a GPU regardless if you can do JPEG and h264 decode on the card - for games, animations, etc etc.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh it's been the same in Windows PCs since forever. Like MMX in the Pentium 1 days - was marketed as basically essential for anything "multimedia" but provided somewhat between no and minimal speedup (v little software was compiled for it). It's quite similar with Apple's neural engine, which afiak is used very little for LLMs, even for coreML. I know I don't think I ever saw it being used in asitop. And I'm sure wh…

The silicon is sitting idle in the case of most laptop NPUs. In my experience, embedded NPUs are very efficient, so there's theoretically real gains to be made if the cores were actually used.

Yes but you could use the space on die for GPU cores.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#239
post #9

Protip, if you are considering a dell xps laptop, consider the dell precision laptop workstation instead which is the business version of the consumer level xps. It also looks like names are being changed, and the business laptops are going with a dell pro (essential/premium/plus/max) naming convention.

I just want a solid laptop that can be used with the lid closed. I want to set it up and never open the lid again. I'll guess I'll keep dreaming.

Re: Dell admits consumers don't care about AI PCs

#240

I don't know how many others here have a CoPilot+ PC but the NPU on it is basically useless. There isn't any meaningful feature I get by having that NPU. They are far too limited to ever do any meaningful local LLM inference, image processing or generation. It handles stuff like video chat background blurring, but users' PC's have been doing that for years now without an NPU.

I've got one anecdote: friend needed Live Captions for a translating job and had to get copilot+ PC just for that.
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