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Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

donutlab.com

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Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#231

Post by rootusrootus »

VladVladikoff wrote: post #129
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as things currently stand, some folks just have a bone to pick with EVs. Even if future models have an 800mi range, can charge to 100% in 5 minutes, and have useful lifetimes as long or longer than ICE counterparts, some will figure out some reason to get angry about them.

If you live in the north, lithium ion batteries are not a great bet for longevity of a vehicle. There are legitimate reasons to not be pro EV in their current form.

People say this, but some of the most popular places for Lightnings are in Canada. And I don't mean BC. They seem to enjoy how well it handles cold weather.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#232

Post by rootusrootus »

wat10000 wrote: post #93
xbmcuser wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me current battery tech is already good enough for passenger ev they cant even use the full charging speed capacity or the charge discharge cycles. Solid state batteries might be useful for heavy duty trucking or aeroplanes/drones

Cost, volume, and weight are still significant constraints. Existing batteries obviously can make for some good cars, but they could be better. It doesn’t have to be more range or faster charging, it could be the same range and charging speed but 25% lighter and cheaper.

A Model 3 doesn't weigh significantly more than a comparable ICE car, so I think weight isn't a huge deal. And it costs less to put in a new battery than it does to buy a new engine, so it seems like we're in an okay spot. And since battery tech reliably gets better every year, the future looks bright.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#233

Post by rootusrootus »

impossiblefork wrote: post #183
sheepscreek wrote: post #149

This is so out there, checks every box imaginable or they’ve done some incredible copy writing. So then, elephant in the room, where is the catch? It’s it the cost? They haven’t left much else - - made from geopolitically abundant resources - unlikely to catch fire - fully charges in 5 mins - does not lose capacity over cycles - retains 99% capacity at -30C and 100C What is today, April 1st??

For me the reason I might trust it to some degree is that they're Finns (and Finns don't usually hype things or bullshit), and it's not just one firm. They've got the motorcycle firm (Verge) in the video, they've got the some other guy, so if these guys just went along with bullshit claims they're kind of ruining the image of their company for no reason. I don't understand how it can be done though.

> They've got the motorcycle firm (Verge) in the video

FWIW, they are basically the same company. It is good that there were other cameos from independent customers, though, to help add some possible credibility.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#234

Post by rootusrootus »

asdgfaqwrg wrote: post #212

Jif creamy peanut butter comes in at 190 kcal per 33 g serving [0], and 2000 kcal is 2.32 kW-h. Doing some good old fashioned dimensional analysis, the energy density of store-bought PB is 190 kcal | 2.32 kw | 1000 g ---------+-----------+------- = 6.68 kW-h/kg 33 g | 2000 kcal | kg So, Jif creamy is nearly 17 times as energy dense as Donut's battery. Even so, crunchy is better. --- [0] https://www.jif.com/products/c…

Could you re-state those numbers but use delivered power instead of hypothetical? Assuming you can get the peanut butter to combust, I mean.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#235

Post by rootusrootus »

mrtksn wrote: post #162
ex-aws-dude wrote: post #103

I don’t understand, why would this debut only in a motorcycle? Wouldn’t there be a much bigger market and investor interest in putting it in a car initially?

It can be many things, like large car companies staying away from unproven tech or them demanding production capacities too large to gamble with brand new tech. This niche motorcycle brand has already established business relationships with Donut Lab, they were using Donut Lab's electric motors. Probably the Donut people easily worked out a release pipeline together in a bar or something, which would have taken years…

> This niche motorcycle brand has already established business relationships with Donut Lab

Yeah, they are the same company basically.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#236

Post by _carbyau_ »

tckk wrote: post #138
_carbyau_ wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curiously, anyone doubting the veracity of the claims has been voted down. If anything, this makes me more cynical that this is a marketing exercise on something that continues to be vapourware until independently verified . If anyone wants to show/link to an independent verification, feel free!

What would be the point of lying about something easily verifyable that you are shipping in the next few months?

You don't think there are business strategies that work with "short term reputation gain, PR manage the crap out of later reputation pain" ? Particularly in marketing?

Lets make up a bullshit scenario and see how plausible it is:

Step 1. Make substantial claims on battery technology in production use, in association with a product.

Result 1. Lot of eyes now see product. In this case, the motorcycle. Marketing success!

Step 2. Milk for as long as possible. Deny external validations of the tech where possible. Maybe a couple of days, maybe a couple of weeks. Bonus points for doing it with a smile and maintaining "positive PR".

Result 2. Maximise eyes on the product, take in orders/deposits - in this case for the motorcycle. Later when it is apparent to all that the battery tech was bullshit...

Step 3. Announce: "Sorry, we couldn't make this otherwise great battery technology work to our very high standards. But the rest of our motorcycle runs fine with exactly the same battery tech as our competitors so you're no worse off! We'll refund anyone who laid down money if they wish to cancel their order."

Result 3. Those who laid down money consider that they're not getting miracle battery tech. Some % (large percentage?) cancel their order. Some % (small percentage?) keep their order because they have the money to not care for what is ostensibly a luxury item that will still largely fulfill it's role. Or because they still like that cool hubless rear wheel.

---------

Overall results of bullshit scenario:

1. Marketing goal of many more people knowing about your motorcycle is achieved. Market penetration of mindshare.

2. Maybe some new orders directly based of the bullshit battery tech claim. But certainly more likely to get new orders from the increased public mindshare.

---------

Now this is a fabricated scenario. Is it what is happening here? I don't have the information to know. All I can do is take things at face value.

Right here, right now, all we have are significant claims on battery technology. Words - promises even! - but no matching product as yet verified. Hence Vapourware.

If the company can back these claims up with substance, then it is no longer vapourware. It is an awesome battery product!

I honestly wish/hope/would-love if this battery tech is real! A major step change in battery tech would be fantastic for the world at large!

But given that similar claims/promises in the past have proven to be false, I am not holding my breath. Merely, noting it exists as vapourware at this stage.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#238

Post by yencabulator »

rootusrootus wrote: post #227
gosub100 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rolling coal is rude an obnoxious but doesn't "destroy" anything. I think you are projecting something personal against the stereotype guy that does that. Just like someone who was bullied might irrationally hate tough looking bikers. Some men (and women!) like large and overpowered trucks. You don't have to like them, but you should praise the freedom that this country gives us to choose our own pursuits.

Intent matters. Some older diesel vehicles smoke a bit. That is normal. Intentionally detuning the engine to inject massive amounts of fuel in order to induce billowing clouds of black smoke is indefensible. It is especially bad because they are not out there using this capability in innocent fun, it is specifically aimed at passersby who happen to be driving a fuel efficient vehicle or riding a bicycle. Some of us d…

It's always a lifted chromed-up truck with oversize exhaust. The one's I'm talking about are 100% intentional, and put money into it. Work pickups look distinctly different.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#239

Post by rossjudson »

testing22321 wrote: post #196
zelon88 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concerns are the computerization of vehicles in general. The issue is not entirely with the telemetry itself, as you frame it. My issue is "what happens when the telemetry is not available?" You, and perhaps your friend, seem to be framing the problem as though the concern is that the car is filled with "spyware." My issue is that the car is filled with "DRM" from the manufacturer. When I buy a car, I expect to ow…

Have you tried to fuel a ICE vehicle in a power outage? I waited a week in the Congo. Getting fuel out of underground tanks and paying for it are non trivial with no power. I can charge an EV off my solar panels.

You forgot to bring your pump, spotter, and nail-tipped bat. If you had those I'm sure you would have been able to fight your way through and have your go juice in no more than 15 minutes.

Re: Donut Lab’s all-solid-state battery delivers 400 Wh/kg of energy density

#240

Post by zelon88 »

testing22321 wrote: post #196
zelon88 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concerns are the computerization of vehicles in general. The issue is not entirely with the telemetry itself, as you frame it. My issue is "what happens when the telemetry is not available?" You, and perhaps your friend, seem to be framing the problem as though the concern is that the car is filled with "spyware." My issue is that the car is filled with "DRM" from the manufacturer. When I buy a car, I expect to ow…

Have you tried to fuel a ICE vehicle in a power outage? I waited a week in the Congo. Getting fuel out of underground tanks and paying for it are non trivial with no power. I can charge an EV off my solar panels.

You find another car and use a center punch on the gas tank. Drain it into a container and fuel whatever you want with it.

You'll be charging a 57kw model X for AT LEAST an entire day using solar panels that would barely fit in the trunk.

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