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The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

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Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#231
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it preposterous that anyone defends this agenda that flips concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' on it's head by collectively punishing everyone for POSSIBLE crimes of some individuals. In a way that any criminal will be easily able to circumvent by not following the law, so it doesn't even achieve it's goal.For example with one time pad exchanged outside of Eu's control + stenography messaging, bundled in…

And I find it exceedingly annoying how all this heated discussion about the dangers of chat control is held oh so far from the actual text of the proposals. For example: there is no actual proposed text for "ProtectEU", the name references a project to provide updates to legislation with a focus on security. All this talk about criminals circumventing the proposed law using VPN is just dreams you have.

are you unable to comprehend hypothetical?

This is just one example showing that circumventing any legal block, without ability to control every form of communication, does not achieve it's goal.

And if any government can control all such forms of communications, we are already beyond saving.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it really depends on what kind of anime you’re talking about Does it? If I draw a naked stick figure with boobs and say it is 14, is that morally wrong? At what point should a person care? Their point is that a drawing doesn't hurt people right?

> If I draw a naked stick figure with boobs and say it is 14, is that morally wrong? At what point should a person care? No and I'm sure every judge in Britain would throw that case out. > Their point is that a drawing doesn't hurt people right? It can in certain circumstances encourage a market or normalise abusive behaviour.

> It can in certain circumstances encourage a market or normalise abusive behaviour.

Just like the printed word. Books should be banned and burned. We should start with Orwell since his writing has been used as a manual for so much abusive behaviour.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#233
post #165
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your constructive criticism. > I think the right course of action should be a political activism, not a technological one. Especially when the company doing it makes a fortune. We tried that. My cofounder and I, as well as several of our colleagues, tried classic political activism in the early 2000s. It became increasingly clear to us that there are many powerful politicians, bureaucrats and special in…

Thank you for the reply, I really appreciate it. > My cofounder and I, as well as several of our colleagues, tried classic political activism in the early 2000s. It became increasingly clear to us that there are many powerful politicians, bureaucrats and special interest groups that don't act in good faith. They lie, abuse their positions, misuse state funds and generally don't care what the population or civil socie…

> Thank you for the reply, I really appreciate it.

Likewise.

> You created a company which .. ultimately undermines the government power and makes it weaker.

Undermining the power of governments and other powerful entities has benefits and drawbacks. Our thesis is that making mass surveillance and online censorship ineffective is a net good for humanity in the long term.

You are arguing that censorship is a net good in the much more specific context of disinformation campaigns on social media during war time. Yes, government censorship might be effective and proportional in that context. It could also backfire.

You are also arguing that the dynamics and algorithms of social media is the vector through which disinformation spreads. Wouldn't it then be more effective and proportional to target social media for regulation?

>> It sounds like you're arguing for censored populations to .. not circumvent censorship through technological means.. > Yes, in democratic countries..

What should people in undemocratic countries do?

> I believe that the exact same ads you have on the streets in the cities should be published by politicians or NGOs and not a business. > .. I do think that political activism is still possible even when there is additional risk.

I agree. At the same time, freedom of expression and of the press is under attack on a global scale. Consider this article from Reporters Without Borders: https://rsf.org/en/world-press-freedom-index-2025-over-half-...

> On the other hand, I do know that vulnerable people (teens, minorities, sick, elderly) in my country get recruited by Russia en masses through messengers. I do know that Russia engages in psychological warfare through Telegram, Facebook and TikTok without governments able to do anything.

I agree that is a serious problem and I don't know how to solve it. I'm sorry.

> I do want for politicians to fight for my rights, but I don't want that from businesses to be honest.

Why not?

> I mean, activism is clearly a part of your business strategy.

From a cause-and-effect point of view it would be more correct to say that starting a business is a part of our activism strategy. My opinions on the proportionality of mass surveillance and government censorship were formed a decade before I started Mullvad. Running a business is hard work, and if I didn't believe in its mission I would move on to something easier.

> The more discussion you create around issues related to privacy and censorship the more users you'll have - that's why I call it performative. Mullvad's business depends on the performance of fighting for the rights at the same time as benefitting from the fight itself.

I see. I interpreted it as "for show" in the sense of not being genuine.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#234
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For clarification, you got raided despite using tor? You mention tor but dont say so directly so I'm not sure.

I've don't use Tor. I've never had a reason to. All the artwork websites I access are publically accessible artwork websites.

Publically accessible doesn't necessarily mean legal.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#235
post #17

Until people lobby for these privacy rights to be enshrined in law, this will continue to be a problem. Defeating one bad law isn't enough.

That is not enough.

We need to make every EU law contiguent on subsequently being adopted by the people - and at a significant majority (say 75% of eligible voters).

Yes that means fewer new laws, which is not a bad thing when the EU people are so detached from their population.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#236
post #20

To be honest, I think VPN businesses and specifically politically charged ones like Mullvad is doing disservice for the security of the country and specifically EU in this case. I think the right course of action should be a political activism, not a technological one. Especially when the company doing it makes a fortune. The course, when one can just disengage from participating in society by sidestepping the proble…

In the history of humanity, it's never been the side attempting to restrict expression and the flow of information that's been in the right. You don't "solve" the spread of "disinformation" because it's not a real problem in the first place. What you call "disinformation" is merely an idea with which you disagree. It doesn't matter whether any idea comes from the west, from China, from Russia, or Satan's rectum: it s…

Arguing that "disinformation is not a real problem, there's only ideas" is reductionism, like arguing that there's no such a thing as a forest, only trees. And a "battle of ideas" can definitely favor the side with more money - if that weren't the case, then why do politicians spend millions trying to outspend their opponents?

There are most certainly groups of people spreading objectively false statements, not as "disagreement" (although that exists too) but because they expect to profit from it. Is it easy to detect? No. Does that mean we should give up? I'd also say no.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#237
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure there is evidence that this is the case. The argument sounds a lot like those made by conservatives against gay people. Somehow, in their view, homosexuality is also just a first step towards “anything goes”, including incest, pedophilia, even bestiality. Porn, in this view, should increase rape, right? But that’s absolutely not the case. People seem to calm down if they can satisfy themselves with just…

> Porn, in this view, should increase rape, right? But that’s absolutely not the case. What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't? How would you even scientifically prove this? There are a whole lot of factors that contribute to rape or rape prevention. Does modern sexual objectification and gratification increase the likelyhood that men will seek to actualize their fantasies? I believe it does. From my own…

> What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't?

I think it’s very obvious when looking at the last 20 years. Porn availability increased ridiculously since around 2000 due to internet becoming widespread. But look at statistics on rape in most countries and you see its decreasing in the large majority. Does that not convince you that at least there seems to be no causation??

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#238
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Porn, in this view, should increase rape, right? But that’s absolutely not the case. What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't? How would you even scientifically prove this? There are a whole lot of factors that contribute to rape or rape prevention. Does modern sexual objectification and gratification increase the likelyhood that men will seek to actualize their fantasies? I believe it does. From my own…

> What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't? I think it’s very obvious when looking at the last 20 years. Porn availability increased ridiculously since around 2000 due to internet becoming widespread. But look at statistics on rape in most countries and you see its decreasing in the large majority. Does that not convince you that at least there seems to be no causation??

Surveillance has also increased, fear of not getting away with it is higher. Also society has been militant about this issue more with "believe all women" etc. Maybe men invest more in video games and relieve their aggression that way without risking prison. I don't know, I am no sociologist but again, there are too many variables to prove any sort of causation.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#239
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Porn, in this view, should increase rape, right? But that’s absolutely not the case. What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't? How would you even scientifically prove this? There are a whole lot of factors that contribute to rape or rape prevention. Does modern sexual objectification and gratification increase the likelyhood that men will seek to actualize their fantasies? I believe it does. From my own…

> What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't? I think it’s very obvious when looking at the last 20 years. Porn availability increased ridiculously since around 2000 due to internet becoming widespread. But look at statistics on rape in most countries and you see its decreasing in the large majority. Does that not convince you that at least there seems to be no causation??

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283100/recorded-rape-off...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1464272/reported-sexual-...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1418831/sexual-offences-...

I realise I respond to a stupid argument. I'm just annoyed.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#240

The cycle of proposing the same surveillance legislation under different names is exhausting. Chat Control, ProtectEU, Going Dark - same invasive proposals, different branding. What's particularly concerning is the metadata retention scope: "which websites you visit, and who is communicating with whom, when and how often" with "the broadest possible scope of application" including VPN services. This isn't about prote…

Pretty sure Google and meta are the ones that normalised mass surveillance...

Mass surveillance by corporations, bad as it is, is less of a threat than mass surveillance by the government. Google can't put you in prison.
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