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CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#231

Post by chickenbig »

usrusr wrote: post #216

I wonder how much Google is factoring in the implicit cooling cycle? Because any pressurized gas energy storage is either including some advanced heat storage or is just venting the heat created during compression (the ancient Huntorf facility in Germany is infamous for that, super wasteful) Usually you want to keep the heat and put it back into the compression medium during decompression and hope that losses from th…

> Because any pressurized gas energy storage is either including some advanced heat storage or is just venting the heat created during compression

    a thermal-energy-storage system cools the CO2 to an ambient temperature
https://energydome.com/co2-battery/ diagram has water as the heat storage. Tanks of water get efficient at energy storage due to square-cube scaling.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#232

Post by mapt »

> The problem is that even the best new grid-scale storage systems on the market—mainly lithium-ion batteries—provide only about 4 to 8 hours of storage.

This isn't the first time I've seen this sort of claim this week about batteries.

If you're a journalist writing these words, stop doing that, and consider your life choices. Ask your boss for tuition assistance to put you through a 7th grade summer-school science class on matter and energy.

If you're a journalist writing these words in an ostensibly technical engineering journal? Christ. I don't even know where to begin.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#233

Post by chickenbig »

Jean-Papoulos wrote: post #178

>The company uses pure, purpose-made CO2 instead of sourcing it from emissions or the air, because those sources come with impurities and moisture that degrade the steel in the machinery. So no environmental advantages. It's supposedly 30% cheaper than lithium-ion, but BYD cars have sodium-based based batteries on the road right now which CATL says will end up being 10-20$/kwh (10x cheaper than current batteries). So…

> So what's the actual advantage of this ?

I would posit that they hope Wright's Law will take hold; the components can be optimised and the deployment standardised. Also it looks as if most of the stuff can be made within the US or EU, dodging tariffs.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#236

Post by mattmaroon »

scoot wrote: post #230
usrusr wrote: post #216

I wonder how much Google is factoring in the implicit cooling cycle? Because any pressurized gas energy storage is either including some advanced heat storage or is just venting the heat created during compression (the ancient Huntorf facility in Germany is infamous for that, super wasteful) Usually you want to keep the heat and put it back into the compression medium during decompression and hope that losses from th…

Isn't this effectively neutral over time? Heat generated during compression, lost during decompression, so basically using the air as a heat storage medium?

Yes. A large radiator would handle both. I assume they just store the heat because hot water will be a lot more efficient at reheating the co2 than night time air and a pool with an insulated cover is not hard to construct.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#237

Post by ben_w »

andrewflnr wrote: post #136
evan_ wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder

...huh, yeah, I don't love that either. Seems sketchy. > putting houses around gas holders was discontinued in the UK.

Phased out during my lifetime. I grew up with them as part of the suburban architecture, e.g. https://www.google.com/maps/place/DUNHAM-BUSH+LIMITED/@50.86...

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#238

Post by slfnflctd »

People have been experimenting with compressed gas energy storage for a long time. This one may finally have legs.

First thing I thought of was a startup from years ago, mildly surprised no one has mentioned it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightSail_Energy

I was really excited about them and was disappointed to see the project fail.

It seems using pure CO2 and scaling up to a massive size are significant boosts to this type of technology (in addition to the heat mitigation along the way).

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#240

Post by NedF »

Jean-Papoulos wrote: post #178

>The company uses pure, purpose-made CO2 instead of sourcing it from emissions or the air, because those sources come with impurities and moisture that degrade the steel in the machinery. So no environmental advantages. It's supposedly 30% cheaper than lithium-ion, but BYD cars have sodium-based based batteries on the road right now which CATL says will end up being 10-20$/kwh (10x cheaper than current batteries). So…

[dead]
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