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KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

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Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I tried krdp, it didn't fit my needs. I needed to have already started krdp locally if I want to connect remotely. Neither x11vnc nor freerdp-shadow have that limitation.

It is possible to start it on-demand via the command-line. That is how krdp is developed and tested. You will need to pre-authorize krdp to the portal system, though. That's documented here: https://develop.kde.org/docs/administration/portal-permissio...

Hah, that actually works, thanks!

Is it possible to do the permission-set remotely?

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the wayland readme: > The wayland protocol is essentially only about input handling and buffer management So sending input to clients and managing the buffers needed is what wayland implements. Everything else is either done in the clients (e.g. rendering) or the compositor (pretty much everything else). Note that this is a subset of what X11 did (though rendering had pretty much already moved to the client for…

Yeah, so is not shitty for those claimed X11 devs to drop X11 since is hard and make a spreadsheet with a specification of a subset of X11 , then let other suckers implement it and maybe some other suckers create specifications of the missifng part they refused or were incapable to create. Probably all was exactly as Red Hat planned, if it works for GNOME then the rest is ignored or if it does not work for the rest t…

I like X11 better than Wayland, but it's kind of hard for me to be mad at other people for ... not doing something I'm also not doing?

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible to start it on-demand via the command-line. That is how krdp is developed and tested. You will need to pre-authorize krdp to the portal system, though. That's documented here: https://develop.kde.org/docs/administration/portal-permissio...

Hah, that actually works, thanks! Is it possible to do the permission-set remotely?

If you can shell in, I don't see why not? It's a command-line thing. It's intended to also be usable for things like Ansible. If it doesn't work, please file bug reports!

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#234
post #194
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 can't recover from an Xorg crash though.

That's okay since X11 is stable and not very crash prone for the last few decades. The WM and Shell are far more likely to crash, which is it's completely fucking retarded to move any of their logic into the display server.

> That's okay since X11 is stable and not very crash prone for the last few decades.

I've been using wayland on three computers for the last two or three years and haven't had a crash that could be attributed to wayland in like.. more than a year?

I've had mesa driver crash when running a particular game a few months ago that eventually got resolved by... updating mesa. I bet many people wrongly attribute that to wayland.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one example: Around 2009 I met Thiago Vignatti. His master thesis was about improving X so it was easy to use in a multi-seat setup (2 monitors/keyboard/mouse) so a single computer could be simultaneously used by two people. He later worked for Nokia, Intel and eventually his own startup related to VR. During his time as a Google summer of code student, his project was to paralelize X code so it could run in mul…

So does Wayland actually solve this issue? From the stats I've seen Wayland either very slightly outperforms X11 or it's the other way around.

So far I've noticed big improvements in graphical fluidity and energy efficiency when running wayland on an old notebook. If devs are also having a much better time supporting wayland... I'm all for it, even if it still has some rough edges.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is the antithesis of an open computing platform and if anything the Linux desktop should use it as an example of what not to do.

Android's sandboxing is doing work for the benefit of the user. This is similar to how your web browser sandboxes JavaScript. Not every app needs access to my location and providing it access shouldn't require root. The Linux ecosystem understands this and it's why there is a large push for sandboxing models in software such as flatpak. Even if you disagree with Android at some level it hard to argue that users benef…

But them it's a question about how trustworthy an app is. Wouldn't it be better for software installed from your own distro repository to be fully trusted and require few or no security popups? After all, they are vetted to a much, much higher standard than any app store. Meanwhile flatpak apps and a random binary you've donwload get the full security isolation, because you can't trust third party devs.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#237
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android's sandboxing is doing work for the benefit of the user. This is similar to how your web browser sandboxes JavaScript. Not every app needs access to my location and providing it access shouldn't require root. The Linux ecosystem understands this and it's why there is a large push for sandboxing models in software such as flatpak. Even if you disagree with Android at some level it hard to argue that users benef…

But them it's a question about how trustworthy an app is. Wouldn't it be better for software installed from your own distro repository to be fully trusted and require few or no security popups? After all, they are vetted to a much, much higher standard than any app store. Meanwhile flatpak apps and a random binary you've donwload get the full security isolation, because you can't trust third party devs.

That's not a scalable solution as not every piece of software can pay the packaging cost for every Linux distro. Maybe it's fine for core system software, but it's too difficult to expect that model to work for all software. Imagine if every website you interacted with needed to ship new website updates by packaging it and getting it vetted.

I think you still need a centralized distribution model even for things like flatpak to ensure some level of centralized auditing and revocation for software that has access to sensitive capabilities. However this doesn't necessarily need to be as large of a barrier for shipping updates as trying to package your software for a distro (and playing the game of trying to get your shared library versions aligned).

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#238
The KDE blog entry reads like a modern political platform denying climate change, or claiming renewable energy can replace traditional energy sources on the grid.

One head strictly stuck in the ground and ignoring the cases that make many of those statements flatly false. Like for example, the nvidia support. Nvidia support in Linux is in the 'good luck' catalog, especially on any optimus laptop, where one is lucky if the power management works, much less multiple screen docking/undocking, and a heap of other issues. Then please clarify which actual driver stack one is running (nouveau vs provide by nvidia binaries, vs nvidia open source) To claim its great with wayland ignores core failures that still exist.

Its the same with X11 forwarding, which like copy paste, has been steady degrading to the point where all the dbus/etc services being depended on makes double digit percentages of applications not work with 'ssh -X' and oh wow, waypipe. It seems all of windows/osx and KDE/Gnome are steadily shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm sorta happy I pulled my financial support not long ago, there are a couple 'toxic' people in the distro DE community who are pushing their own agendas, everyone else be damned. And weirdly enough it seems those people aren't doing it for some corporate/whatever reason, but just to wave a flag about their accomplishments. The entire reason most people claim wayland is 'better' is largely FUD, but that doesn't stop the true believers.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this problem was Wayland's reason for existing?

Nah mate, it's all about the Wayland Trust model. No keylogging, consent-based screen recording, and no window spying. Isolation.

https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xextproto/security.ht...

Notice the date.. 1996

(for those that didn't click the link, that is the X11 security extension which address all that, and it was published ~30 years ago).

Re: KDE Plasma 6.8 Will Go Wayland-Exclusive in Dropping X11 Session Support

#240
post #61

I live in a cave and am not a system programmer -- what's so wrong with X11 so people need to replace it with something else instead of improving it? Or, what's so wrong with anything so people need to replace it with something else instead of improving it? Let's say I'm an old man favoring improving existing stuffs instead of starting from scratch. I like debugging and wish to work as a sys programmer specialized in…

> what's so wrong with X11 so people need to replace it 1. Security - Any program using X11 can read keystrokes, passwords, or the contents of any other window. Fixing this would break all existing X11 applications. 2. Performance - X11's client-server model doesn't work with hardware accelerated graphics, requiring hacks to get around. X11 is basically stuck with this legacy. The ground-up re-design of X11 to fix th…

https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xextproto/security.ht...

Is the security extension from 1996, which has a section on keyboard security

and its crazy to me that this anyone can claim X11 can't be off loaded, which its been doing for decades. From all the crazy blt/pattern HW acceleration to GL/vulcan implementations to the fact that the entire server can be on the other side of a network pipe, meaning it could be anywhere, including entirely encapsulated on a graphics card/smart nic/etc.

And if your talking about the xlib serialization, that was largely fixed with XCB.

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