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The disguised return of EU Chat Control

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Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#231

Post by pcrh »

klabb3 wrote: post #137

This can backfire bigly for the EU. The whole union is sustained on shared values and interests. Sneaking in surveillance is extremely offputting for the sentiment towards EU in many circles. Every member state has plenty of skeptics who want to brexit and this is gasoline for them. And rightly so. This isn’t a fluke from some misinformed non-technical stray politician who ”wants to save the children” (yes, they exis…

Agreed.

The strength of the EU is based on the EU institutions not having too much power. It's why the EU does not attempt to expel, hopefully temporarily, reprobate nations such as Hungary.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#232

Post by throw-qqqqq »

eastbound wrote: post #227
Y-bar wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark is a strange nation with regards to liberty and personal belongings: https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/4963/Denmark:-Exemptin...

Denmark is pretty famous for the fact that people consider themselves pretty centrist and moderate, while the policies they implement, each analyzed separately, are the most leftist of all the EU on all modern topics (ie not classical communism of course - just climate change, women, immigration etc). But when you’re surrounded with likeminded people and little diversity of the press, it sounds logical.

I respectfully disagree that Denmark is left-leaning wrt. immigration. 20-30 years ago that was true, today not at all.

From https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2lknr2d3go.amp

“UK seeks Danish inspiration to shake up immigration system”

“Shabana Mahmood will model some of her new measures on the Danish system - seen as one of the toughest in Europe.”

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#233

Post by throw-qqqqq »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #153
mrtksn wrote: post #85

Denmark has a month and a half as EU presidency to go. I still don't get why they want this to be their legacy so badly.

Genuine question: is that Denmark reintroducing this proposal? It's not clear when it's mentioned "the EU commission's revised proposal..." - and second question, if it's "Denmark", who from Denmark has the authority to do so? Any elected Danish member from the EU council?

Denmark holds the EU Presidency. That means they chair the Council of the EU, set the agenda, organize meetings, and drive forward legislative work in that period.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#234

Post by Muromec »

pcrh wrote: post #229
Muromec wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no loophole really, EU can repeal it's own laws the same way it passes them -- it needs to get the commission, the parliament and enough national governments on board. >Do EU treaties per se contain any language that might be relevant to privacy? Doesn't matter really. No right in any treaty is absolute. Not even the right to life itself -- the police can and does shoot people and it's legal for them to do u…

Most rights are held in balance, as you describe. However, mass surveillance cannot reasonably be held in balance with detection of crimes, as most people are not criminals

It's not that I like chat control or think that mass surveillance can lead to any good.

What I'm saying, is -- just because the balance isn't where you want it to be, and the policy is bad, that alone doesn't mean the law is unconstitutional, against the EU treaties or ECHR or should be impossible to pass through the legislative.

It's just bad because it's bad.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#235

Post by WhyNotHugo »

pcrh wrote: post #53

The right to privacy is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights, article 8 [0]. It escapes me how politicians can repeatedly attempt to violate this. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/european-convention-h...

> It escapes me how politicians can repeatedly attempt to violate this.

There is no penalty for doing so.

If something is outlawed but there is no negative consequence for doing it, then it’s not really outlawed in practical terms.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#236

Post by blibble »

Muromec wrote: post #199
blibble wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And once in place repealing it will be tremendously difficult. as in: not possible the EU parliament can't legislate to remove it, at least not without permission from the two organs (commission, council) that keep pushing this EU parliament is the only legislature in the world that needs permission to legislate

>EU parliament is the only legislature in the world that needs permission to legislate It makes sense, because EU law is mostly technical stuff that commission has to draft and all the national governments have to agree to. With the commission being elected by the parliament itself and vote of no confidence being a thing, it's not like the parliament doesn't have power -- the power is intentionally nerfed to not over…

> With the commission being elected by the parliament itself and vote of no confidence being a thing

you only need 50%+1 to appoint the commission, but 66% to vote them out

so practically impossible

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#237

Post by andix »

I just don't believe they would be able to roll it out. A lot of messaging services won't implement chat control. If half of the messaging apps are getting blocked, people will get angry.

There will be massive backlash towards EU. Texting is just so embedded to the daily life, if the EU causes inconveniences or trouble with texting, this might create massive anger. It could start off Brexit-like campaigns in some countries.

I'm not saying that it is impossible this is going to be implemented. But I think it's just some bureaucrats dreaming.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#238

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rambojohnson wrote: post #228

the comment thread here is obnoxiously naive, and speaks to the privilege some people having been raised under the calm of supposedly democratic societies. you're all arguing about the syntax of rights while governments rewrite the grammar. once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification. the "law" doesn’t restrain power, power instructs law where to kneel. stop trea…

> once a state decides ubiquitous surveillance is necessary, it’ll find or fabricate a justification

This is defeatist, fatalist nonsense.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#239

Post by andix »

ntoskrnl_exe wrote: post #204
klabb3 wrote: post #137

This can backfire bigly for the EU. The whole union is sustained on shared values and interests. Sneaking in surveillance is extremely offputting for the sentiment towards EU in many circles. Every member state has plenty of skeptics who want to brexit and this is gasoline for them. And rightly so. This isn’t a fluke from some misinformed non-technical stray politician who ”wants to save the children” (yes, they exis…

This legislation has a potential to "radicalize" a lot of people. I don't agree with many of the decisions by the EU, but at the end of the day the pros do outweigh the cons and in a hypothetical Brexit-like referendum I wouldn't consider agreeing with leaving. If this passes, however, the pencil in my hand would definitely hover above the YES checkbox for a while and, actually, maybe even tick it. This alone would b…

If they really ban everyone under 16 from texting, this would also become kind of a time bomb. A lot of those affected teens will be allowed to vote very soon. And they might have a very different mental image of the EU than the generations before. The EU used to be a gate to all of Europe, free traveling, no cell roaming fees, Erasmus student exchange. The next generation of voters might perceive the EU as some dystopian institution that takes away fun and freedom.

Re: The disguised return of EU Chat Control

#240

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ambicapter wrote: post #49
ryandrake wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to win every time. They only have to win once and it's game over.

Why can't we put up legislation to repeal over and over until it is repealed?

> Why can't we put up legislation to repeal over and over until it is repealed?

We can. It’s just easier to throw a wrench in a legislative process than to start it. (By design.)

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