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US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

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231–240 of 397 posts

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of is https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf The problem is that tax collection also happens with congressional approval.

This seems to be a somewhat inefficient system. There is no absolute need to consider aviation fees to be taxes and collect them through a federal agency. Individual airports should be capable of financing their local ATC as they see fit, be it their own airport fees or, IDK, a surcharge on hamburgers sold in the local McD or a gift from a wealthy sponsor; and they should only have a duty to maintain certain technica…

It's a perfectly fine system. It just relies on our elected representatives not playing a game of chicken to get what they want, and act in the best interests of the country. Unfortunately, for a whole lot of reasons, they haven't been able to do this intermittently since the mid nineties.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#232
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a variety of things they didn't predict, including the fact that the executive branch would believe that they have the right to not spend the money congress appropriated to do things. This is the real crux of the shutdown: Negotiations where you demand some spending in exchange for votes are unlikely when the other side can refuse to spend the money, so ultimately there is no credible basis on which to eve…

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You'd think that after more than half a year of outright destruction of your country you'd stop digging. Indeed, elections have consequences, so why are you so upset with the democrats? Aren't you going to fix things now? This is your finest hour, and it will be remembered for a long time, how you acted and what drove you to keep on digging that hole when it was abundantly clear that the path chosen wasn't working at all.

Just one thing: don't tell me afterwards that you didn't know.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

22 million Americans benefit from the Affordable Care Act subsidies. I hardly think it is just some small number of socialists who care about this.

42 million on SNAP as well. It’s tempting to assume they have a plan because we project rationality but I don’t think they do beyond chaos and hurt the people they don’t like.

At some point it won't even matter if they have a plan. I'm comparing it to throwing a stone off a mountain. You might not achieve much, or you might start an avalanche and good luck trying to control that once it gets going. Then it's just gravity and mass and until that has run it's course you're along for the ride.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#235
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure if you’re being tongue in cheek or not but the US government doesn’t really function like a parliamentary one. Elections can’t just be called, governments can’t just be dissolved, and any sort of coalition is within different factions of the two major parties. Republicans hold a majority in the Senate (which is akin to the upper house, House of Lords, or whatever else) but in order to forcefully end a fi…

I don’t understand the filibuster thing and how it plays into this. I’m seeing the vote for the government budget or something being voted on over and over. If there is a certain majority required to pass something then it is implied that there are negotiations. If the opposition party was just expected to vote yes then why vote at all? That’s why I’m asking, has the content of what was voted on changed significantly…

> I don’t understand the filibuster thing and how it plays into this.

Senators are allowed to debate bills. A motion to end debate and move to vote can't happen until debate ends. A senator does not generally have a time limit on the amount of time they can debate, so unless they yield the floor, the process can't move forward.

Cloture is a process to force a closure of debate to force a vote (which has its own separate rules). This requires 3/5 of the senate to vote in favor of ending debate. In practice, senators are not speaking for hours on end anymore; it is simply the "threat" of filibuster which eventually stops the bill in its tracks. In this state it cannot progress to a vote nor does it go back to the House of Representatives. In order for it to proceed, they must pass it (and send it to the president) or amend it (and it goes back to the house of representatives).

> I’m seeing the vote for the government budget or something being voted on over and over. If there is a certain majority required to pass something then it is implied that there are negotiations. If the opposition party was just expected to vote yes then why vote at all?

There is negotiation. Senators may try to convince each other to vote a certain way so they can gather enough votes to force cloture. This isn't a formal debate on the senate floor, but done behind the scenes. This may result in them finding enough votes to force the vote or it may result in an amended bill. If a bill is amended by the senate, it must go back to the house of representatives to be voted on. If it passes there, it moves on to the president. If it is amended, it goes back to the senate. Once both houses pass without amendments, it moves on to the president.

> If the opposition party was just expected to vote yes then why vote at all?

Currently they need 6 or 7 votes to pass. They have a few Democrats voting with the Republican majority and Rand Paul, a Republican, is voting against the Republican majority. In order to get the supermajority for cloture, they need to convince several more Democrats. It can happen, though without real amendments, it's unlikely.

> That’s why I’m asking, has the content of what was voted on changed significantly? Maybe taking away healthcare from people has to be done a different way. Make a bill that opens the government, then take healthcare away.

The reason why the Democrats are holding as of right now is because of expiring Affordable Care Act subsidies. If the bill opens the government without an extension, then it is taking that healthcare away, as you say. They are using the shutdown and the increased pressure on the government to reopen as leverage to extend these subsidies. The short term pain is dwarfed by the perceived benefit of ensuring that the funding for these subsidies is secured.

For the Republicans it is essentially the opposite. Extending these subsidies leaves it open to being a wedge point again down the road and midterm elections are coming up next year. They are using the shutdown to try to convince voters that Democrats don't care about government employees or other people because they won't fund the government (i.e not paying US service members, Air Traffic Controllers, Federal workers, etc.). Extending Affordable Care Act subsidies goes against their stated interest in aggressively reducing budgetary deficits over the next ten years.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#236
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good grief. The shutdown is a temporary budget squabble in a stable democracy; a banal political stunt that has happened every few years for the past few decades. Rome’s dysfunction meant civil wars, assassinations, generals seizing poWer, private armies, and uprising (in a fundamentally different society where, incidentally, over 25% of the population was slaves.) There has been over 2000 years of history since Rome…

Assassination & attempted assassinations have all happened within 12ish months. You’ve got an executive branch stacking all open positions in judicial and legislative branches with their political appointees. And the executive is interpreting the law to gather as much power as possible to the head of state. It’s not hard to see the parallels but you keep on trucking dude.

> You’ve got an executive branch stacking all open positions in judicial and legislative branches with their political appointees.

The judicial branch is composed of Judges who are confirmed by the Senate… not the executive branch.

And there are no ‘Legislative branch’ appointees.

I assume you mean the executive branch is making appointments to the executive branch? Who would you prefer to make such appointments? The Postal Serice?

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good grief. The shutdown is a temporary budget squabble in a stable democracy; a banal political stunt that has happened every few years for the past few decades. Rome’s dysfunction meant civil wars, assassinations, generals seizing poWer, private armies, and uprising (in a fundamentally different society where, incidentally, over 25% of the population was slaves.) There has been over 2000 years of history since Rome…

We’re seeing deliberate attacks on: Fair elections Rule of law Independence of courts Checks and balances I expect if you don’t think this is going to get bad you’re not paying attention.

None of which has anything to do with the ‘last days of the Roman Republic.’

Feel free to panic and tear your hair out… that’s what both sides do. Boring. The post, however, make some pretentious analogy to the Roman Republic. The analogy was silly. That’s all. It’s just an annoying variant of Godwins law: Rome or Hitler… the only two analogies available to those ignorant of history.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#238
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two weeks ago, the German state funded publisher Deutsche Welle published a video making a case about the possibility of Donald Trump actually being a Russian asset: https://youtu.be/JmEtx-EmYtc I would be speechless if a conspiracy theory comes true, and the American state is actually captured by the Russians. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t wish it, but as a fan of the series The Americans, it will be epic..

Nah, he's swung back and forth on Ukraine at least 4 times now. Russia certainly did help Trump get the White House, what with the propaganda and all, as they correctly foresaw how terrible he would be for the American Empire. But he does not receive his orders from Putin, that's ridiculous. He's just cruel and stupid.

Agreed, but bluntly: what's the effective difference for Russia? They can't give direct orders, but they also don't have the rest of the world calling foul [about an illegitimate American leader, as we ignore Ukraine for a moment].

I'd say Trump not being an explicit asset gets them 90% of what they're after, with almost no downsides

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#239
post #3

Remember, the pain this is causing everyone means less to the people in power than does the benefits of this shutdown (to them). We can argue about what those benefits are all day long, but they wouldn't be refusing to have discussions with the Dems if there were not some benefit, be it political power they can wield, or whatever.

The problem is that it's existential for both Democrats and Republicans. Given the current makeup of the federal government, Republicans basically have all the power and have been able to leverage that into spending the last 10 months doing whatever they want. The exception to that power is the Democrats' ability to filibuster in the Senate and shut down the government by not agreeing to whatever the Republicans put…

> The problem is that it's existential for both Democrats and Republicans.

> If Republicans give up anything to the Democrats, the spell of the last 10 months is broken and Republicans can no longer unilaterally control the direction of government.

How is that in any way shape or form “existential”? Existential means “if they fail they cease to exist or matter”, not “if they fail they don’t get to whatever the fuck they want”.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#240
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assassination & attempted assassinations have all happened within 12ish months. You’ve got an executive branch stacking all open positions in judicial and legislative branches with their political appointees. And the executive is interpreting the law to gather as much power as possible to the head of state. It’s not hard to see the parallels but you keep on trucking dude.

> You’ve got an executive branch stacking all open positions in judicial and legislative branches with their political appointees. The judicial branch is composed of Judges who are confirmed by the Senate… not the executive branch. And there are no ‘Legislative branch’ appointees. I assume you mean the executive branch is making appointments to the executive branch? Who would you prefer to make such appointments? The…

> Who would you prefer to make such appointments? The Postal Serice?

At this point, I’d even prefer the Girl Scouts.

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