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Some people can't see mental images

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Re: Some people can't see mental images

#231

Post by skinkestek »

andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

The way I understood it was the apple on a table test:

I was asked to close my eyes and think about an apple.

if you do it now, close your eyes for about 10 - 20 seconds and think very hard about an apple on a table.

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then immediately after opening your eyes tell me what color the apple was.

For me and many others it is an absurd question. We only thought about the thing apple on the thing table, absolutely no visual representation.

For some of my siblings they saw the apple and could of course tell me the color and also the color of the table.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#232

Post by nevertoolate »

altruios wrote: post #64
mnmalst wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really saying you can see an apple in the same way you see an apple with eyes opened? The exact same way? So if you close your eyes, imagine an apple and then look at an apple that someone holds in front of your eye, the apple looks exactly the same? As if you could look through your closed eye lids?

Some people can project the image of an apple into the real world. As in, they are able to imagine an apple on the table that they see with their eyes. They 'see' it, but see that it's a projection. It's a lot like when you have two very similar images (except one change), and you cross your eyes such that they overlap to highlight the change (it's ghostly, as it's only seen in one eye). Same Idea, only instead of th…

I suspect that much more people can do it than unable to do it (aphantasia)

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#233

Post by joquarky »

abetusk wrote: post #90
mnmalst wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really saying you can see an apple in the same way you see an apple with eyes opened? The exact same way? So if you close your eyes, imagine an apple and then look at an apple that someone holds in front of your eye, the apple looks exactly the same? As if you could look through your closed eye lids?

I'm not saying that at all. I think I have aphantasia. For me the score is 1 or 2 to picture that apple. I was shocked to realize that when people said "imagine in your minds eye", they meant it literally. This seems to be a common experience for people with aphantasia [0]. Note that when I'm close to sleep or dreaming, then yes, my minds eye visualization is close to photographic parity. While awake, its almost comp…

I suspect the activated Default Mode Network interferes with the ability to perceive with detailed clarity.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#234

Post by teaearlgraycold »

andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

A guy was talking to me about designing some robot legs. He was just getting started and was new to mechanical design. The more questions I asked him the more I realized he couldn’t internally visualize what he was designing. When I’m putting something together in my head it’s like a mental CAD where I can place objects down, constrain them to each other, and see how they move in relation to each other. For this guy I recommended simply diagramming on paper to work out how it should function.

I have a fuzzy mental stage for these things. It’s like my mind’s second monitor. It mostly goes ignored but I can focus on it if I want to. Shapes and colors are weak but are definitely there. But still a useful tool.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#235

Post by swat535 »

mnmalst wrote: post #87
altruios wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people can project the image of an apple into the real world. As in, they are able to imagine an apple on the table that they see with their eyes. They 'see' it, but see that it's a projection. It's a lot like when you have two very similar images (except one change), and you cross your eyes such that they overlap to highlight the change (it's ghostly, as it's only seen in one eye). Same Idea, only instead of th…

That's interesting, so how can people like that know which is real and which is not? I don't understand it.

I can do this, the best I can describe it is that your brain "knows" you're imagining it so it's different than for example hallucinations.

It's similar to replaying music in your head (if you can do that), you can hear the tune but your ears "know" no music is actually playing.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#236

Post by joquarky »

Anonyneko wrote: post #81
abetusk wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The test is this: Close your eyes and try to visualize an apple. Do this for 30 seconds or so. Try to visualize the skin, the reflection, the texture, the stem, the depth, etc. Try to hold a stable mental picture of that apple. After the 30 seconds, rate your ability to picture the apple from 1 to 5, where 1 is complete inability and 5 is as if you were looking at a picture of an apple for those 30 seconds. 1 is apha…

I can visualize an apple, somewhat vaguely, but I've never been able to hold a stable mental picture of anything for longer that a split-second. It just blinks out of existence the moment I "see" it, which makes it rather dysfunctional... Not at all the case with sounds though, I can play back some of the music tracks I listened a lot to, flawed of course but still recognizable. My brain even starts doing it on its o…

What if you try it with the apple slowly rotating or moving in some way?

I can keep a visualization as long as it keeps moving or rotating. As soon as I try to visualize it as still, it disappears.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#237

Post by ergonaught »

andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

Okay, so, if you think people are only metaphorically referring to their "minds eye", then you probably have aphantasia. If the idea of people "counting sheep" to go to sleep confuses you, thinking that perhaps you could not go to sleep if you just lay there counting to yourself (hint: that's not what they mean), welcome to club aphantasia.

I haven't even read the comments yet and I guarantee there are people here debating that there is some spectrum or degree of quality to the imagery of the minds eye, and those people don't understand that there is nothing which can possess qualities when you have aphantasia. If there are degrees, then you don't have aphantasia.

It's entirely possible to imagine things, and to access data/information about things that the brain is presumably constructing, but there is no direct, sober, conscious access to mental imagery. None. Not "fuzzy", not "cloudy", not "not very strong": none.

Resonates? Again, welcome aboard.

No? Thanks for stopping by. :)

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#238

Post by fsniper »

nosianu wrote: post #107
bigyikes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve interrogated people about this but can never get a straight answer. —— “So you can really see things in your head when your eyes are closed?” Yeah! “And it’s as though you’re seeing the object in front of you?” Yeah, you don’t have that? “So it’s like you’re really seeing it? It’s the sensation of sight?“ Well… it’s kind of different. I’m not really seeing it. —— …and around we go. Personally, I can see images w…

For me it is like a different "space" for mental vs real images. It is not the same neurons, I would guess. The real images are (and feel) outside of myself (obviously, you may say). The mental image feels very close and kind of "inside my mental space", in a dark space. It is far from how I see with my eyes on all levels, very basic. It is more conceptual, that concept given some vague form, not "pixels" (not that t…

Very very well put. I couldn’t describe my same state as you have. Makes perfect sense for me. Thank you.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#239

Post by Jordan-117 »

andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

My understanding of it has been that aphantasiacs can only imagine in terms of verbal descriptions, not images. If that's the case, it seems like visual analogy would be a good differentiator.

For example: without any internal monologue, think of the Sydney Opera House, and then name some other objects it resembles.

Someone with visual imagination should be able to rattle off stuff like sailboats or seashells or folded napkins based purely on visual similarity, while a true aphantasiac should be lost without being able to look at a picture or derive an answer from a mental list of attributes.

(Likewise, if you gave a non-aphantasiac a written list of visual attributes the Sydney Opera House and ask them to name similar objects without picturing anything visually, it might be much more difficult to get the same range of answers.)

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#240

Post by phainopepla2 »

tekacs wrote: post #146
phainopepla2 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have sometimes wondered whether there is a personality or cognitive trait that makes one unable to respond to tests measuring personality or cognitive traits. Every personality test I have ever taken, on many of the questions I've felt that I could answer almost anything and still be truthful. When I see this apple scale, I simultaneously feel that both 1 and 5 apply to how I visualize an apple. It's hard for me to…

Something that might help - in this specific instance - is trying to contrast with others. That is: if you show this photo to people that you know and you compare and contrast _how detailedly_ you can imagine the apples, that can help. For example: are you imagining a _specific_ apple? What high-level color is it? How about more specifically? How does the color change across the surface? If so, does it have any disti…

That doesn't really help me, because I feel that I could answer those questions in detail but also truthfully say that there is no image at all of the apple in my head.

I guess what I'm saying is that image / not-image binary doesn't really map on to how I perceive the experience of my own imagination.

But again, maybe that just means I'm a 5 and I'm coping.

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