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California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

latimes.com

231–240 of 363 posts

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#231
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the poster boy for nuclear is reducing nuclear output as its fleet ages and filling that gap with renewables (reducing its electricity emissions from 2005 when their nuclear peaked too). So it apparently doesn't matter what your existing grid is, coal, gas, nuclear, hydro, of whatever mix, the thing you should be building now is mostly solar, wind and (not quite caught on globally but just about to make a very b…

The batteries mentioned in the article have only a few hours of capacity, and are designed to smooth the peak usage intraday. I think many people are confused and seem to think batteries are a viable way to address the volatility of wind, where you may deal with weeks with no/low wind, or solar, which in countries with cold winters is of little help. I have yet to see a cheap scalable alternative to carbon to deal wi…

Long-form storage is inherently unprofitable - a battery that's used daily will make 365x the sales of a battery that's used only once a year.

So inevitably, the first batteries will always prioritize daily arbitrage, and only once that market is capped out will some battery projects target weekly/monthly/yearly arbitrage.

In countries with cold winters, the obvious solution is heat-energy storage systems, which don't output electricity but instead store and output heat directly; they're basically just a big pile of sand/stones/bricks wrapped in a ton of insulation. Thanks to the cube-square law, they scale up unbelievably well and can easily store months worth of heat.

Due to that scale they don't make much sense without district heating, but energy storage is a numbers-game and lots of cold places already have district heating that could be quite easily retrofitted.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CATL is just dumping

CATL had a profit of $2.6B last quarter on sales of $15B. That indicates they're pricing well above cost rather than below it.

Western folks still don’t get how China works more than two decades after WTO lol

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that's the reason?

> How do you know that's the reason? Just noticed that their profile basically taunts that they're a troll [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=hagbard_c

If openness equals trolling you're absolutely right but if that is the case it does raise the question whether the site name covers the site content.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#234

This is the way. It's become standard practice in China, which now leads to the world with half of all battery installations.

China is a mixed bad, they also lead the world in new coal power plants. https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/1160441919/china-is-building-...

China is also the world leader in closing coal power plants too.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumping batteries is yet another strategy to take control of global energy infrastructure and destabilize petrodollar

Oh yeah I get what you’re saying but is that a thing? Like CATL has had lines before that aren’t making a profit?

It's not a thing; people are just stuck in the 2000s and think that China can't beat the West technologically and therefore must be cheating.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#236
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the poster boy for nuclear is reducing nuclear output as its fleet ages and filling that gap with renewables (reducing its electricity emissions from 2005 when their nuclear peaked too). So it apparently doesn't matter what your existing grid is, coal, gas, nuclear, hydro, of whatever mix, the thing you should be building now is mostly solar, wind and (not quite caught on globally but just about to make a very b…

The batteries mentioned in the article have only a few hours of capacity, and are designed to smooth the peak usage intraday. I think many people are confused and seem to think batteries are a viable way to address the volatility of wind, where you may deal with weeks with no/low wind, or solar, which in countries with cold winters is of little help. I have yet to see a cheap scalable alternative to carbon to deal wi…

The UK uses far more gas to heat homes than to generate electricity, and uses some for industrial purposes so it seems weird to attribute LNG use to wind, the technology that more than any other has reduced gas usage in the UK.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#237
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never thought about the impact of Texas hail storms on solar energy. Is there an industry standard practice to shield the panels during hail storms? Or do they use stronger glass? I am curious to learn more.

Tracker systems with "hail stow"[0] mode. They bring the panels as vertical as possible. [0]: https://www.energy.gov/femp/hail-damage-mitigation-solar-pho...

[flagged]

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#238
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. The previous high was in 2006(!). Overall, statewide energy consumption seems to be flat or declining. In 2020, there were extremely high heat days in August, with wildfire smoke covering the state. Thankfully I was out of town, but my wife was suffering, unable to cool the house OR open a window. In 2021 or 2022 I finally broke down and bought a window-mounted AC unit for my office, as I work from home. In 2024…

Equipment dies and needs to be replaced. When that happens a more energy efficient unit is usually available and is often the best option for replacement. That's the whole other side to this curve which isn't seen very clearly in grid analysis.

That happens on a larger scale too. When an energy-intensive facility reaches some sort of lifetime limit, it too is replaced with something more efficient -- but also it will be replaced in a location where costs, including energy costs, are lower. So over time such facilities will tend to migrate to places where energy costs aren't too high.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CATL had a profit of $2.6B last quarter on sales of $15B. That indicates they're pricing well above cost rather than below it.

dumping doesn't depend on profit or loss. Also the legal definition of dumping is less-than-the-"normal value." (see Article VI ANTI-DUMPING AND COUNTERVAILING DUTIES of GATT 1994). But then China is a non-market-economy, so none of these rules apply in a hypothetical anti-dumping case -- ie, China's local price, or "normal value" doesn't matter.

A normal value for a highly competitive commodity part like a battery is about 3% above cost. CATL charges over 20% above cost. So you might have an argument that CATL has monopoly pricing power and is gouging its customers.

IOW that they're illegally charging too much, not that they are illegally charging too little.

Re: California invests in battery energy storage, leaving rolling blackouts behind

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quebec has them both beat. Hydro rules! https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/zone/CA-QC/5y/yearly (To be transparent, there's controversy around calling hydroelectric renewable.)

What strikes me is the fact that nuclear power has received an incredible amount of backslash after the Chernobyl incident (a few thousands deaths) and the Fukushima incident (one disputed death), but hydroelectric power is considered a "good" source of energy despite a few incredibly deadly incidents: - Banquiao (China, 1975): between 26.000 and 240.000 [1] - Derna (Lybia, 2023): between 6000 and 20.000 deaths [2] -…

In Quebec, most of the dams are in the middle of nowhere, but your point still stands.

There are costs/risks for most forms of power. If you're in an environment where wind and solar can make economical sense, go for it. For reliable base loads, I still think order of preference should be:

- geothermal (very rare and hard to do at scale, though) - hydro

- nuclear

- natural gas

- oil/diesel (at very small, localized levels eg remote villages)

- burning live babies and cute animals

- coal

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