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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

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Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#231

Post by avianlyric »

t_mann wrote: post #226

Would be interesting how they work technically. The linked pdf mentions an EMV chip, which I assume is some sort of TEE. Other than creating recipient-specific one-time vouchers online, I can't think of a way to do offline payments without a TEE.

Yes EMV chips and the EMV standard are secure elements that were spec’d and have been manufactured since the 80s. The EU has been using these thing pretty much universally since the late 90s.

They’ve also supported offline transactions that entire time. Indeed offline transactions was the norm for a long time because internet connections were expensive. So payment terminals did offline transactions, then literally phoned home at the end of the day to upload all of the day’s transactions.

The transactions themselves are just signed by the cards, and stored by the payment terminals. Interestingly using symmetric encryption, because asymmetric encryption was two expensive to put into debit/credit cards when the EMV spec was originally created.

Card transactions being online by default in the EU is pretty recent phenomenon that only really happens in the past 5-10 years, as internet connections and cheap mobile data plans have become ubiquitous.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#232

Post by jayknight »

mercanlIl wrote: post #217
jhbadger wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People forget that the credit card companies charge businesses to process transactions. Some stores/restaurants even give discounts for paying in cash because of this.

IME (in Canada), the cash discount is surprisingly close to 15%, which is approximately the sales tax in most provinces.

Here in the deep (American) South, small businesses give discounts for cash because those global elites are trying to take away our cash and want to track us or whatever. To that mindset, cash is a way to resist a theoretical oppression.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#233

Post by gnabgib »

normie3000 wrote: post #227
bobsmooth wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I immediately think they’re doing it for tax evasion reasons What's your opinion on that? In NA, for small businesses it's common to offer to pay in cash to avoid paying sales tax.

Where is NA?

Mexico + USA + Canada.. North America

It's also not common (and illegal).. this account posts a lot of vague platitudes.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#234

Post by russelg »

blurrybird wrote: post #173
daneel_w wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to differentiate common purchases from "large" purchases in this discussion. I'm certain you don't think there's something shady going on, or tax evasion happening, if someone uses cash in the grocery store or at Pressbyrån, or to pay for some little gadget or whatever at Kjell&Co. This is what people think of when someone "uses cash". Not hauling tens of thousands to buy a used car or to settle the bill for…

FWIW I am Australian and we have a similar adoption rate of cashless payments. If a merchant tries to promote cash options I immediately think they’re doing it for tax evasion reasons - not because of the touted reason that “card payments cost more to process” (they don’t once you factor in the cost of handling cash).

If a tradie offers me a better price when I pay by cash, of course they're doing it to dodge tax. I'm still gonna take that discount.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#235

Post by ajsnigrutin »

bobthepanda wrote: post #224
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they already have all this, there are very few merchants that don't actually accept cash at all.

This is a function of geography. Where I live in Seattle, a lot of businesses simply don't handle cash at all, because break-ins for the cash register are quite expensive to deal with, and they circumvent that problem by simply posting outside the business that there is no cash. One of the few businesses near me that must take cash, a dispensary, recently had an issue where somebody tried to break in using a stolen p…

I mean sure, US is special in this case, especially since you don't actually persecute small time thieves...

But i've paid with cash all over europe, and except for some vending machines, i've never been turned down, be it london, paris, berlin, belgrade or athens... from large supermarkets and museums, to local corner newsstands with a small fridge and cold drinks and local fast food joints. On the other hand, the most unsafe I ever felt as a traveller was in chicago, supposedly in a "nicer/safe area", and I've been through the balkans in the 1990s.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#236

Post by throwawayq3423 »

jhbadger wrote: post #208
tdeck wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the same thing in the US about small businesses that only take cash, but it's still pretty normal to use cash in the US.

People forget that the credit card companies charge businesses to process transactions. Some stores/restaurants even give discounts for paying in cash because of this.

Yes, mostly to avoid paying taxes on their revenue.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#237

Post by arachnid92 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #220
tcshit wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say he’s correct, people under 60 that uses cash are considered, if not criminal, at least suspicious, like they have something to hide. Or simply wackos. I haven’t used cash for the last 15 years or so. Except for when I had carpenters at home who wanted to get paid in cash (to avoid taxes, so called black money).

So do you like always take split bills for everything? Like when eg. 4 coworkers go to eat together (ie. not a situation where one person pays everything)? Over here in the balkans/mitteleuropa you just put some approximate amount of cash on the table. Same for kids, you're not giving a kid your credit card when you send him to a bakery to get bread, you give him a couple of euros in cash.

In that situation either (1) someone will pay for everyone at the table and then everyone else will “Swish” (the name of the local money transfer app) them their respective share of the total bill; or (2) they’ll just ask the server to split the bill and each person pays for their part. Both are actually quite common, and having lived many years in Sweden, I’ve never eaten at a restaurant where asking the server to split the bill was a problem.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#238

Post by schoen »

dgfitz wrote: post #209
schoen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not once in their entire lives?

It would be a "unique" situation. Most AMTs (not all, but most) only dispense $20 bills, the rarer ones will dispense $5s or $10s, and they're rare enough that I make a note of them. I have never encountered an ATM that gives a $50. Your best bet of happening into a $50 is if you go to a bank for an in-person withdraw and they ask you for preferred denominations. Generally the money is dispensed in $20s even there un…

Huh, the Wells Fargo ATMs here in San Francisco actively offer me $50 bills on a regular basis! I wonder how much this various by bank, by region, or by ATM manufacturer.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#239

Post by PostOnce »

sitharus wrote: post #154
Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

We hardly use cash in New Zealand, over 85% of transactions are electronic. There’s a lot of places that don’t accept cash anymore because cash handling is annoying and risky. That said, nobody thinks of cash as dirty, just annoying. Also our payment system has always been able to work offline, because it started rolling out in the 80s.

Since when does EFTPOS work offline? It works off the internet, but not "offline", if the phones are down, EFTPOS is down. It happens with relative frequency, given the weather. Or trucks hitting boxes, or diggers cutting cables. Shit happens.

Regarding places not accepting cash: NZ First (political party) is proposing to protect the right to use cash and make all businesses accept cash for up to $500 items.

> The Cash Transactions Protection Bill would mandate businesses in trade accept cash payment for goods valued up to $500.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#240

Post by schoen »

hattmall wrote: post #201
schoen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not once in their entire lives?

I'm not even sure if that I knew there was a $50 bill. And that's as an American of 30+ years that uses cash routinely. Multiple times I've cashed checks and gotten it all in 2's, but honestly can't ever remember a $50 bill. I always have at least one $100 bill in my wallet and don't ever recall getting a $50 in change, has to be the least common note. But now I'm thinking waaaaay back and does the President on it ha…

Well, I suspect the notes larger than $100 (which are no longer being printed!) are even rarer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_five-hundred-dol...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_one-thousand-dol...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_five-thousand-do...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_ten-thousand-dol...

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