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Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

foxbusiness.com

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Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#231

Post by 1659447091 »

gottorf wrote: post #137
1659447091 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if subjectively cherry picking. VPN apps "help circumvent the law", I wouldn't call them a bad thing

VPNs can serve a legitimate purpose, like shielding your traffic while using a public network. Seems to me the better technology analogue to ICEBlock is The Pirate Bay; maybe there's some flimsy pretext of it being used for a legitimate purpose, and maybe it's not outright illegal, but everyone knows that it's almost always used for an illegal purpose.

> but everyone knows that it's almost always used for an illegal purpose

And I would argue that to the general population (non-HN/tech types) a VPN is the "Pirates Bay" of banned or ID law content. Porn ID law goes into effect, tens of thousands of people suddenly sign up for a VPN. If they thought of it as "shielding your traffic while using a public network" they wouldn't be signing up en masse when laws happen that they want to circumvent; they would have already been using it.

As for ICEBlock et al, knowing they are raiding in a part of a city that happens to be on someones running or cycling/walking route while being a darkly pigmented citizen is a valid use of the app to know to stay clear of the area. It should not be a thing, but it is.

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#232

Post by saurik »

heavyset_go wrote: post #205
saurik wrote: post #8

FWIW, everyone who claims that Apple fundamentally needs the centralized ability to control apps on their platforms "for everyone's safety" -- despite how that obviously and repeatedly makes them become patsies for governments all over the world to enforce their censorship regimes -- are complicit in this stuff (in addition, of course, to the people who build it at Apple...).

Genuinely hope you're successful with your suit, if that's still ongoing.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45458944 (a quick update in another thread fork)

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#233

Post by [deleted] »

roamerz wrote: post #200
sixothree wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which law is this app breaking?

I think it’s more about liability that specifically breaking a law. I’m not a lawyer but Apple is knowingly publishing an app that is openly helping people evade and/or break the law AND is putting Law Enforcement in danger. Seems there is some liability there.

[deleted]

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#234

Post by saurik »

stingraycharles wrote: post #49
valleyer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Apple shareholder. My Apple shareholder interest is for Apple to preserve its reputation in the long term, including when Trump is long gone. Please stop repeating this "shareholders only care about short-term money" idea.

I’m also an Apple shareholder. Tim Cook is a very shareholder-friendly CEO. One of the first things he did after he became CEO, which jobs always refused, was to start stock buybacks. I have a hard time believing Apple getting in legal fights with the current administration is something that shareholders will appreciate, even if it’s better in the long term. Regardless, if shareholders care about long term instead of…

> Tim Cook is a very shareholder-friendly CEO.

I feel like John Sculley of all people praising Tim Cook on this point was pretty damning ;P.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/03/ex-apple-ceo-john-sculley-co...

> “Steve Jobs created a loyalty with users that is unparalleled in the consumer technology world. What Tim Cook has done, he’s built a loyalty with shareholders,” Sculley said on “Squawk on the Street.”

> Regardless, if shareholders care about long term instead of short term, shareholders - as a whole - put the wrong CEO in charge.

FWIW, while I keep wondering just how different the entire world would have ended up if Scott Forstall had ended up in charge of Apple instead of Tim Cook, I believe he was also one of the big reasons the App Store ended up as evil as it was (not Steve) :(. Is there anyone whom we could take seriously as having been in serious contention who actually would have done a better job?

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#235

Post by CamperBob2 »

jjav wrote: post #146
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't the centralized control, it's the power the governments have.

> The problem isn't the centralized control, it's the power the governments have. The governments will always have the power, that's pretty much built into the definition of government. So, technology needs to be built with this reality in mind. Thus, avoid all centralization.

The governments will always have the power, that's pretty much built into the definition of government.

Not the definition of our government. Our founding documents state that "Congress shall make no law" along the lines of what Apple is being pressured to do here.

And the executive branch isn't supposed to be making laws at all, even though that's what they're doing.

As the GP says: the problem is the power. But when some of us argue that maybe the government shouldn't have this kind of power, we get shouted down with "HURR DURR MOVE TO SOMALIA THEN," and worse.

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#236

Post by [deleted] »

aerostable_slug wrote: post #191
fearless1ron wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Host it in a country with free speech then

No need for actual free speech. Host it in Russia, China, Venezuela, Iran, DPRK, or any other strategic adversary of the United States. The success of ICEBlock is 100% inline with their information warfare goals. The more strife they can spread, the more protests, the more violence, the more confrontations, and the more 'noise' that gets made about ICE in the US, the better for them. That doesn't mean the developer o…

[deleted]

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#237

Post by valleyer »

magicalist wrote: post #189
layer8 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t prevent being blocked in other countries.

Sure, but "fuck you, make me" continues to be the best course of action. If they threaten to block you, make them, don't give up in advance.

Yup, that's what I wish Apple would do here.

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#238

Post by saurik »

renewiltord wrote: post #38
saurik wrote: post #8

FWIW, everyone who claims that Apple fundamentally needs the centralized ability to control apps on their platforms "for everyone's safety" -- despite how that obviously and repeatedly makes them become patsies for governments all over the world to enforce their censorship regimes -- are complicit in this stuff (in addition, of course, to the people who build it at Apple...).

[flagged]

FWIW, you are legally required to pay your taxes, and there are going to be serious consequences to your life and your family's life if you don't; the moral decisions in that situation are much more difficult. However, Apple obviously is not and never was legally required to build a centralized App Store... hell: it isn't even clear that that it is legal that they did it, and these arguments are still playing out in court!

And, certainly, no one is legally required to put copious effort into defending the thing Apple did which directly and predictably leads to these results (which are not new or surprising). Even if Apple is, now, legally required to remove this app (and I don't know if they even are: many companies are just cowing to political, not legal, pressure), they carefully and intentionally set themselves up to be in that position.

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#239

Post by Freedom2 »

concinds wrote: post #199
andsoitis wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re still not shaming me.

Okay. So your point was not really: "I disagree on moral philosophy, responsibility and the attribution of guilt", it was: "I support Apple's centralized control on all apps you can run, but I don't want to be criticized for the moral implications of state control, censorship and authoritarianism, nor do I want to defend my position on the merits". That's cheap.

I don't know if that's necessarily a charitable interpretation of the comment, keeping in mind the HN commenting guidelines. Despite differences in opinion we should give everyone the chance to state their view, no matter what it is, as long as it generates "curious" discussion.

Re: Apple takes down ICE tracking apps after pressure from DOJ

#240

Post by valleyer »

roamerz wrote: post #200
sixothree wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which law is this app breaking?

I think it’s more about liability that specifically breaking a law. I’m not a lawyer but Apple is knowingly publishing an app that is openly helping people evade and/or break the law AND is putting Law Enforcement in danger. Seems there is some liability there.

Avoiding being where ICE agents are is not against the law. Even being in the country while eligible for deportation is not against the law.

Crossing the border not at a designated point of crossing is against the law; this app is not for that.

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