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Don't avoid workplace politics

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231–240 of 332 posts

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#231
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing, and a good example why for me all those values trainings are worthless, they are lies that get spread across meetings, placed on adversting material, told to junior employees, and hardly anyone follows them in practice, other than doing that yearly training to check a checklist.

This is a wild take. I think the point of the parent comment was that those "values" have to be honest to be worth anything, not that they shouldn't exist at all.

I am approaching 50 years old, I never seen them being honest in first place during my half century, only marketing material.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing the game theory aspect of it. Even in the positive sum game the spoils aren’t divided equally. Additionally not everyone behaves rationally, i find the opposite to be generally true

> I think you are missing the game theory aspect of it. That's actually exactly how I think about this, let me explain my analysis. I view it as the composition of two games. "Should we pursue the spoils?" is the first game, and the correct strategy is to play that game and coordinate with people to play it. The zero sum game is dividing the spoils, this is conditioned on having won the first game. As long as everyon…

So, since people will play the games anyway, companies should design the office politics in such a way that the company makes more money, and therefore it can afford to pay the team members more money too. Everyone in the company is therefore better off. Did I get that right?

How would such a positive-sum game look? I'm lacking imagination because I've never worked in an environment with such a positive game.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#233

When Jeff Hodges gave a presentation of his "Notes on Distributed Systems for Youngbloods"[1] at Lookout Mobile Security back in like 2014 or 2015, he did this really interesting aside at the end that changed my perception of my job, and it was basically this. You don't get to avoid "politics" in software, because building is collaborative, and all collaboration is political. You'll only hurt yourself by avoiding lev…

I used to work for a software company that literally had "no politics" as part of its DNA. It was in the company handbook, it was in our values, people would say it when they talked about what it was like to work at the company. Hell, whilst I can't recall any specific instances, I guarantee that I said it and probably many times[0]. But, of course, it was never true. It might have felt true - certainly superficially…

>I used to work for a software company that literally had "no politics" as part of its DNA

I did too. It was something the CEO started saying after a particularly brutal game of thrones style purge.

I think a lot of times company values are simply "things the company did and perhaps still does for which it feels shame".

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#234
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work for a software company that literally had "no politics" as part of its DNA. It was in the company handbook, it was in our values, people would say it when they talked about what it was like to work at the company. Hell, whilst I can't recall any specific instances, I guarantee that I said it and probably many times[0]. But, of course, it was never true. It might have felt true - certainly superficially…

Your Musashi quote reminds me of another relatively well-known quote from philosopher Eugene Gendlin: "What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it."

>People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it."

I dont know about that, denial is a powerful force.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding #1, when people ask what is the best skill I acquired during my career, I always answer that it was "learning how to do well in interviews". For a very long time it was the only thing I focused. Quite often the job itself is pretty easy, getting in is the hard part. In the past couple of years I let it slide a bit because keeping yourself sharp for interviews is sort of a pain in the ass, but I promised nys…

It depends on what type of interviews you expect. My value proposition hasn’t been my ability to write code for over a decade. It was first being the first or second technical hire by a then new director/manager/CTO brought in to lead a new initiative as a lead/architect and then working in customer facing cloud consulting roles combined with hands on keyboard coding. With those roles, it’s all about soft skill behav…

Absolutely, I was talking about very technical roles, typically as a software developer. "Individual Contributor" in contemporary corporate jargon.

I was never interested in other roles.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#236

When Jeff Hodges gave a presentation of his "Notes on Distributed Systems for Youngbloods"[1] at Lookout Mobile Security back in like 2014 or 2015, he did this really interesting aside at the end that changed my perception of my job, and it was basically this. You don't get to avoid "politics" in software, because building is collaborative, and all collaboration is political. You'll only hurt yourself by avoiding lev…

But then, there might be two different kinds of politics:

One is a cordial game of soft power exchange, getting things done and everyone winning at the end of the day. No malicious intent, just day to day frustrations boiling over here & there. Tomorrow is another, we are friends again tomorrow & will succeed tomorrow. Forgiveness & forgetting is in good supply. Some amount of grace is allowed, no drawing blood. Help each other up when down (even if via manipulation).

The other kind of politics is basically a blood sport. Its a game of hard power exchange where people try to dominate and humiliate each other. There is almost no self-preservation, no care about tomorrow, no learning, no adapting - only the next way to slaughter you opponent, setting legal traps, messing with their personal lives. Zero grace. These kinds of games & people often do not care about the the goal, the company or product - they only care about winning at the blood sport and each interaction for them is a way to gather data, search for weak spots and so on. Its not enough to win, you have to humiliate and oppress another's spirit. Kick the person while they are down. Certain corps attracts a couple of these contestants and soon you have a full floor of psycho's playing a vicious game. For them it feels normal.

So its best to find groups/companies with good people that plays the gentle game (and keeping the bad apples out), that knows it is all made up & essentially role play, that doesn't crave blood. Its the only places where you can really succeed as a human. The other kind you only succeed at drawing blood and destroying others, while enjoying it.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#237
It's a very common situation at work - if two team members have serious difference of opinion, the manager, instead of looking into the matter or taking sides, asks both to duel it out and come out with an agreed solution. Manager doesn't care about who is right and not willing to take the risk of judging. Easier for manager to is just let them fight it out.

In reality, the manager already has a perception for both and knows the outcome. The team is aware of that perception, and would not dare to correct it or give a surprise because that is not going to benefit them. Bosses don't like their hard-earned perceptions being corrected. No surprises please. The weaker would realize this perceptional power and bow out even if their view point has merit. Manager would thank both for sorting it out.

You can't engage in gladiator fights against bad and powerful people. You are more likely to hurt yourself than influencing the decisions. The audience may clap and encourage the fight, but they are not completely neutral.

Each person gains their power by perception (from their boss or co-workers). They can use this power to shut you off. So, from an individual perspective, you need to choose what's best for you based on how powerful you are. Simply getting into politics without such assessment is foolish.

The whole point of collaboration is to build the perceptional power. Also, being in higher position keeps you in loop for all communication giving you more access to the on-goings and opportunity to get visibility. This increases the perceptional power.

People hoard information. It's a treasure and sometimes their whole career depends on keeping it as secret. Also people hoard work items. Just having a long queue of work also gives power. Atleast you have a lot to talk about and possibly grow your team.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#238
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your Musashi quote reminds me of another relatively well-known quote from philosopher Eugene Gendlin: "What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it."

> What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. I think this is false in an interpersonal relationship context. Acknowledging something can make it worse. I often think about a scene from Friends , with the following setup: - Phoebe is visited, by surprise, by a character unknown to the audience. - We learn that he is her husband, that he is a gay figure skater, and that the marriage was proposed…

On the other hand, if it helps to let go - one of THE most important abilities a brain has - than that is a big potential benefit.

A long time ago but in a place not so far away, as a teenager with some love drama, I once was completely cured from a weeklong lost love hangover in a second when I realized I never had a chance to begin with. That was a very enlightening moment about how "love" works. My brain let go of the idea and that was that, I was free again with zero negative effects remaining.

While it cannot be controlled at will like moving an arm, attitude does have a big influence. You can make your brain move towards letting go. That's not covered by my anecdote where I discovered the effect by accident, that is something I realized over time. Avoidance or confrontation (of the problem) is, I think, neutral, it can work with either.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#239
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing, and a good example why for me all those values trainings are worthless, they are lies that get spread across meetings, placed on adversting material, told to junior employees, and hardly anyone follows them in practice, other than doing that yearly training to check a checklist.

This is a wild take. I think the point of the parent comment was that those "values" have to be honest to be worth anything, not that they shouldn't exist at all.

The question the parent commenter raises is more related to those trainings, which are 100% artificial and typical corporate checkbox ticking on the HR TODO list. Nobody disputed the value of giving an example by living and acting in certain ways.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#240
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is a wildly antagonistic take. It's apparent that the meaning of the quote is true to the parent commenter, regardless of whether or not the attribution is accurate. The attribution being inaccurate does not rob the quote of it's meaning. > I could have said the same thing. But you didn't, and would never have, until you saw the quote for yourself. To claim otherwise is to lie, which you seem pretty passionately…

[flagged]
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