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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#231

Post by 1718627440 »

logicchains wrote: post #191
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Men with guns stop men with guns. Really? Why does America, the country with the most guns by far, have the most gun deaths by far? It's very tiring arguing these very obvious points over and over.

Nazi Germany, Communist China and Soviet Russia have by far the largest number of deaths by _men with guns_, over a hundred million people killed by their own governments. The guns of US citizens have so far prevented this kind of government-led mass citizen genocide from happening. The number of people killed by gun violence in the US is a rounding error compared to the number of people killed by Mao, Hitler and Sta…

Most people killed by these regimes killed people as aliens. If truly want to compare the actions of the USA, you must also count there handling of there aliens (e.g. in wars).

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#232

Post by Aloisius »

nikkwong wrote: post #151

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

> They feel incredibly safe and don't have to worry about being victims of crimes, having their packages stolen, walking around late at night alone, etc.

Em. I think feeling incredibly safe has more to do with the media telling people that no crime exists and all criminals are caught, rather than a reality of zero crime.

There is evidence that crime started being systematically under-recorded in China since they started assessing police on proportion of recorded crimes they solve.

https://archive.is/20250624235740/https://www.economist.com/...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#233

Post by lukan »

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

Best case scenario would be, lots of children will be saved from abuse because the magic software somehow discovers that. I kind of doubt it though.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#234

Post by amarant »

thfuran wrote: post #224
xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

>The authorities really think every predator will just give up and stop abusing just because of that? What a joke. Yes, the framing is disingenuous, but so is yours. You're seriously suggesting that any policy that doesn't 100% eliminate a problem is a joke?

If the cost of the proposal is "let's throw democracy under the bus" as it is in this case, it better be damn close to 100% effective to be worth it!

I have a hard time imagining this will be more than 10% effective.

This proposal is a joke

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#235

Post by 1718627440 »

brabel wrote: post #107
iLoveOncall wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem it's trying to solve is mass surveillance...

The motivation in Denmark was some big cases where organized crime was only caught due to a huge hacking operation where the police was able to monitor communication on the apps commonly used by the criminals. That allowed them to take very dangerous people off the streets and now they want to do more of that, more easily. I think the discussion can never be in terms of absolutes. If your family was murdered by some…

Nobody here argues against wiretaps after court rulings. The discussion here is about mandating sending a transcript of every communication you do to the state (unless you work for the specific parts of the state).

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#237

Post by jimbo808 »

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

The thing that is crazy to me is that they choose to go after Signal of all things. Certainly there would be higher priority targets than a messaging app that has no social networking features to speak of, if child predators were really the target here.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#238

Post by annoyingnoob »

nikkwong wrote: post #199
matthewdgreen wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements Imagine a future where aliens invade, and all of our civil rights have to be suspended in order for society to be re-focused on fighting an existential war against the invaders. I suppose this sci-fi hypothetical could happen and if it did happen then the sacrifice might even be necessary. But it's not happening n…

I don’t know if it’s complete fearmongering to imagine a scenario in the future where chemical or biological weapons are easier to manufacture and therefore execute attacks. Hundreds of people died in Europe last year due to terrorist attacks, and compared to where our species will eventually be, many of the technologies used in these attacks are still in their infancy. The world may evolve, but the scriptures that e…

The ultimate surveillance state cannot keep you ultimately safe.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#239

Post by 1718627440 »

nikkwong wrote: post #199
matthewdgreen wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements Imagine a future where aliens invade, and all of our civil rights have to be suspended in order for society to be re-focused on fighting an existential war against the invaders. I suppose this sci-fi hypothetical could happen and if it did happen then the sacrifice might even be necessary. But it's not happening n…

I don’t know if it’s complete fearmongering to imagine a scenario in the future where chemical or biological weapons are easier to manufacture and therefore execute attacks. Hundreds of people died in Europe last year due to terrorist attacks, and compared to where our species will eventually be, many of the technologies used in these attacks are still in their infancy. The world may evolve, but the scriptures that e…

This concept already exists. It has for centuries. It's called war.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#240

Post by palata »

Bender wrote: post #118
palata wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack is not end-to-end encrypted and belongs to a US company. So there is no need for ChatControl there: the US government already has access to everything that is written on Slack.

I believe they are referring to using GPG to encrypt data before putting it into Slack, much like using the out of band OTR. In that case all the data shared between those using GPG or OTR would only be accessible to those with the right out of band keys. There are probably not a lot of people doing this, or not enough for governments to care. I do this in IRC using irssi-otr [1]. If that ever became illegal because…

> I believe they are referring to using GPG to encrypt data before putting it into Slack

In good approximation, nobody does that.

And anyone who is capable of communicating over PGP won't be covered by ChatControl anyway. They can keep using PGP over whatever they want, or just compile Signal from sources.

> If that ever became illegal because encryption then groups of people could simply use scripts or addons to pipe through different types of encoding to make AI fuzzy searches harder.

I don't think that this makes any sense at all. This is some kind of poor encryption. Either you honour the law and you send your messages in plaintext, or you don't and you use proper encryption. There is nothing worth anything in-between.

If encryption is illegal, those who really need it can still use steganography.

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