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Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

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Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#231

Post by foobar1962 »

mcv wrote: post #152
alexchamberlain wrote: post #148

The UK banned single use plastic bags at major supermarkets. We all moaned about it for a few minutes, forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it. Even the small plastic bags you put fruit or pastries in are now gone in a few super markets - initially, they replaced them with transparent paper-based windowed bags, but then I think people realised you really don't need to see inside the bag, an…

Yeah, I still don't understand why brown paper bags aren't more standard for everything. I do see some manufacturers reducing plastic, fortunately. For example, my box of tea bags used to come wrapped in plastic, and now it suddenly doesn't, and I'm wondering why it ever needed plastic. But there's still so much stuff that comes wrapped in plastic, and often multiple layers of it. Just ban it. There are excellent alt…

I'm old enough to remember when supermarkets only had brown paper bags. They were weak and the handles tear off easily, and anything cold will make the bag wet and it will fall apart usually from the bottom. Supermarkets must have spent a lot of money replacing customer's broken items when bags failed even before leaving the store.

So when doing the calculus for brown paper bags don't forget to include the cost goods wasted when they fail.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#232

Post by stoobs »

nielsbot wrote: post #50
throw101010 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these at least in my region are made from cornstarch. They decompose well/without "microplastics" but only under correct conditions. Home composts aren't usually meeting these, their temperature isn't going high enough for full decomposition and you can have traces of polymers left behind. I throw them in the trash for compostable waste because thankfully my collectivity collects these to generate biogas and…

I thought it was all PLA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeo I think there's also "biodegradable" plastic which has cornstarch in it which allows bacteria to degrade it, but that's not the same thing?

PLA doesn't actually biodegrade outside of specialist industrial facilities, it was much vaunted as an eco friendly thing when 3d printing started using it, but we rapidly found out it can last decades without breaking down much if at all.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#233

Post by jraph »

philipallstar wrote: post #230
jraph wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is terrible. Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me. Of course wrapping everything non-organic is a no go as well, it would be terrible for the environment. And I'm afraid stopping the production of non-organic stuff ain't happening anytime so…

> Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me. They're different types of environmental. One is "I don't like pesticides and I have money" and the other is "I don't like eternal plastic waste".

Different things, same group of people (money matters aside - people don't buy because it's more expensive, but despite it), no?

The "I have money" part is obviously unfortunate. Buying healthy and environmentally-friendly shouldn't be conditioned by money. The next best individual thing is voting with one's own wallet in the meantime.

The "I don't like pesticides"¹ and the "I don't like eternal plastic waste" are very compatible. Both pesticides and eternal plastic waste hurt the environment in their own ways.

I suppose the target is the restricted set of people who are interested in organic products for their own individual health and who don't push the reasoning far enough to see that their health depends on the environment being healthy in the long term. Or, people who prefer buying organic food and who will make a compromise.

Do you have a different reading?

¹ we will note that organic doesn't mean "no pesticides", and is broader than just pesticides, but I accept the shortcut.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#234

Post by DownGoat »

jajko wrote: post #211
GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brown paper, from recycled fibers are often contaminated with mineral oil residue (e.g. from ink on paper) and other unhealthy chemicals, sadly. There was a report in Germany, years ago, of a range of organic products that failed during testing. They discovered the packaging (recycled paper) was the issue, not the crops and the supply chain before packaging. So, a _really_ biodegradable cellulose bag is desirable. Ev…

Road to hell is paved with good intentions... I wonder how many here even notice the most important comment here from you and just keep repeating how plastic bags are worse. Yes they are terrible, but we shouldn't just blindly replace them with anything and call it a day but do the (continuous) investigation for best solution, poisons are these days everywhere.

You have the same problem with plastic. Recycled plastic may not be food safe, and have contamination from whatever it was used for before recycling.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#235

Post by upcoming-sesame »

darkwater wrote: post #226
alexchamberlain wrote: post #148

The UK banned single use plastic bags at major supermarkets. We all moaned about it for a few minutes, forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it. Even the small plastic bags you put fruit or pastries in are now gone in a few super markets - initially, they replaced them with transparent paper-based windowed bags, but then I think people realised you really don't need to see inside the bag, an…

We bring tupperwares when buying groceries for the meat, ham, cheese, fish etc and even if the cynic might say it's just a "feel good" action, well, I still put a lot of plastics in our recycle bin but we halved it since we started doing that (and some other trick). Yes, it definitely feels good.

doesn't it add significant weight to the price ?

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#236

Post by jraph »

loopdoend wrote: post #217
jajko wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions... I wonder how many here even notice the most important comment here from you and just keep repeating how plastic bags are worse. Yes they are terrible, but we shouldn't just blindly replace them with anything and call it a day but do the (continuous) investigation for best solution, poisons are these days everywhere.

Wouldn't the best solution be ensuring they all end up in an appropriate landfill rather than a river? It seems people are so against landfills that they're happy to sort their plastic and sent it on an epic journey of fraud where it ends up in a river in India. Meanwhile it could have been buried with their other trash and appropriately managed.

> happy to sort their plastic and sent it on an epic journey of fraud where it ends up in a river in India

It's not like they like this outcome or are even aware of it. We can't blame the individuals who want to do things properly here.

The correct solution to "broken recycling chain" is not "let's not recycle", it's "let's fix the recycling chain".

The issue with non-reusable / non-recyclable stuff is that we have a limited amount of it and is also environmentally expensive.

Even recycling is not ideal. There's waste, and it costs energy. It's in the end not so sustainable.

The best solution to me is reusable bags and containers (washable, and possibly refundable / returnable) whenever possible.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#237

Post by latexr »

awalsh128 wrote: post #125
latexr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t you bring plastic bags from home? They are very much reusable, you don’t have to throw them out. They are also quite easy to fold into small shapes and keep on you, or your car, or whatever. I have plastic bags which have endured for literal years. I also decided early on that if I forget to bring a bag, I either do without or have to go back to get one. You start remembering really fast after a few times o…

Because I forget them at home most of the time on the way to something else.

Again, force yourself to go back or do without whenever you forget, and you’re going to start remembering really fast.

Additionally, don’t just take them when you know you’ll need them, do it before. Next time you need to leave your house to go somewhere, grab some and put them in your car. Done. Go put some right now next to your wallet or keys or literally on the handle of your house’s door.

Or just use the cardboard box approach I mentioned. You can’t forget to bring what’s already inside the store.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#238

Post by nandomrumber »

DownGoat wrote: post #234
jajko wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions... I wonder how many here even notice the most important comment here from you and just keep repeating how plastic bags are worse. Yes they are terrible, but we shouldn't just blindly replace them with anything and call it a day but do the (continuous) investigation for best solution, poisons are these days everywhere.

You have the same problem with plastic. Recycled plastic may not be food safe, and have contamination from whatever it was used for before recycling.

New plastic doesn’t have that problem and is incredibly cheap.

Take price as a proxy for resource / energy input and see that new plastic is also incredibly lite on inputs.

New plastic may have some off-gassing / contact contamination concerns though.

Last time I checked, energetically we’re better off using plastic over paper or recycled plastic, and burying the waste… if we could do that reliably, which we don’t seem to be able to.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#239

Post by philipallstar »

jraph wrote: post #233
philipallstar wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me. They're different types of environmental. One is "I don't like pesticides and I have money" and the other is "I don't like eternal plastic waste".

Different things, same group of people (money matters aside - people don't buy because it's more expensive, but despite it), no? The "I have money" part is obviously unfortunate. Buying healthy and environmentally-friendly shouldn't be conditioned by money. The next best individual thing is voting with one's own wallet in the meantime. The "I don't like pesticides"¹ and the "I don't like eternal plastic waste" are ve…

> (money matters aside - people don't buy because it's more expensive, but despite it), no?

I didn't say people buy it because it's more expensive.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#240

Post by tremon »

foobar1962 wrote: post #231
mcv wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I still don't understand why brown paper bags aren't more standard for everything. I do see some manufacturers reducing plastic, fortunately. For example, my box of tea bags used to come wrapped in plastic, and now it suddenly doesn't, and I'm wondering why it ever needed plastic. But there's still so much stuff that comes wrapped in plastic, and often multiple layers of it. Just ban it. There are excellent alt…

I'm old enough to remember when supermarkets only had brown paper bags. They were weak and the handles tear off easily, and anything cold will make the bag wet and it will fall apart usually from the bottom. Supermarkets must have spent a lot of money replacing customer's broken items when bags failed even before leaving the store. So when doing the calculus for brown paper bags don't forget to include the cost goods…

Those are not the brown paper bags the GP was referring to. Those fall under the earlier category of "forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it". The ones that are left are to replace "small plastic bags you put fruit or pastries in".
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