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Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

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Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#231

Post by piker »

tialaramex wrote: post #223
daveoc64 wrote: post #80

I'm always surprised at the hostility to Acetaminophen on HN (or Paracetamol as we call it here in the UK). It's one of the most commonly used medicines in the UK - and certainly the most popular painkiller. YouGov even did a survey confirming that - https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/docume... The safety aspects of it are not something that gets raised in the UK much - other than suicide attempts,…

If Paracetamol was invented today it would likely never receive an OTC (over the counter sale, meaning you can just buy it from a retail outlet the way you'd buy cough medicine or toothpaste) license in the UK. Yes, it's safe (and for a bunch of people including me, effective) at the licensed dose, but it's useless at about half that dose, and it's toxic, leading to very nasty deaths in some cases, at just about 3-4…

Always surprises me as an American in the UK how hostile the UK is to paracetamol. You buy it in like 300-pill packages in the US, and I've literally never heard of anyone having a single accidental over-dose. I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone intentionally overdosing on it, but I guess I can't rule that out since I'm aware of who 1-2 people personally have taken "a handful of pills".

The efficacy window of driving cars is pretty narrow, and represents existential risk to third parties. But as with cars, sometimes the balance favors wide availability.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#232

Post by VikingCoder »

duskwuff wrote: post #181
kosma wrote: post #164

There is research correlating autism and mothers taking certain medications (painkillers, antidepressants). Since autism is hereditary, there is a significant chance that these mothers are autistic too. Autistic people have a vastly high risk of depression, and often have unusual pain thresholds, requiring more painkillers. I would not be surprised of the correlation was real, but the direction of action was reversed…

[flagged]

Check out epigenetics.

"Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression that occur without altering the underlying DNA sequence. These changes, also known as epigenetic modifications, affect how genes are turned "on" or "off" and are influenced by factors like environment, lifestyle, and aging."

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#233

Post by jrflowers »

johnisgood wrote: post #167
docstryder wrote: post #75

It is the safest painkiller currently available. Ibuprofen can cause gut bleeding and renal issues if overdosed on. We all know about opiates. Some facts - typical adult dose is 1g. Max suggested cap on the drug label is 3g per day (about 6 pills at usual 500mg dose). You need to take 10g (20 pills) to be at real risk of hepatotoxicity. So 10 times the typical dose is when you have overdose effects. (basically 20 pil…

> We all know about opiates No, I do not think we do, because it causes none of the side-effects associated with NSAIDs, and it is even safer than acetaminophen, i.e. there is no risk of hepatotoxicity whatsoever. The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue, it matters as so much as liver failure matters with acetaminophen overdoses. Opiates are safer than…

> The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue

I like this point because it is complete gibberish. If you simply do not mention the side effect that makes a drug lethal, it sounds a lot like the drug does not have lethal side effects. Obviously we cannot do that with acetaminophen though, we must talk about hepatoxicity when it comes to that drug.

On the one hand we have a drug that can cause both mental and physiological dependence and addiction (so what), has an admitted side effect that encourages some users to escalate their dosage beyond medical guidance (who cares), and can cause you to either stop breathing or aspirate and choke on your own vomit if you take too much (that part is a little tricky so we just proceed as if that is not the case)

On the other hand you have a drug that is hepatoxic at several multiples of its recommended dosage. Obviously the second one is more dangerous becau

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#234

Post by paulvnickerson »

docstryder wrote: post #75

It is the safest painkiller currently available. Ibuprofen can cause gut bleeding and renal issues if overdosed on. We all know about opiates. Some facts - typical adult dose is 1g. Max suggested cap on the drug label is 3g per day (about 6 pills at usual 500mg dose). You need to take 10g (20 pills) to be at real risk of hepatotoxicity. So 10 times the typical dose is when you have overdose effects. (basically 20 pil…

> The autism stuff is plainly false and disproved.

If you consider the relevant research you might think differently: https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/using-acetaminophen-during-pre...

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#235

Post by 8note »

_mlbt wrote: post #74

Why are doctors telling women that it's okay to take Tylenol during pregnancy in the first place? Everything they put in their bodies can have an effect on the baby so medication for pregnant mothers should be severely limited. Why haven't we learned from the Thalidomide scandal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide_scandal Tylenol only helps for minor aches and pains that frankly, pregnant mothers should just d…

> pregnant mothers should just deal with for the good of their unborn child

Who's to say that the mother experiencing a ton of pain doesnt also affect the fetus?

where's your proof that its safe to leave a prefnant woman in pain?

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#236

Post by 8note »

maxerickson wrote: post #69
danaris wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they? Or is it, perhaps, possible that, if there is indeed a real increase in the rate of autism, it's because of something that has nothing to do with our modern pharmaceuticals? Could it perhaps be related to the increases in various kinds of air pollution? Water pollution? Pesticides or herbicides in our foods? Or even the dramatic increase in EM signals being broadcast everywhere? Until there are reputable stu…

There is far less environmental contamination now than there was in 1970. And modern agriculture practices result in lower amounts of less toxic substances in the food supply.

microplastic contamination, for one, is much higher now than the 1970s. who knows what else we arent measuring for carefully

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#237

Post by johnisgood »

jrflowers wrote: post #233
johnisgood wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all know about opiates No, I do not think we do, because it causes none of the side-effects associated with NSAIDs, and it is even safer than acetaminophen, i.e. there is no risk of hepatotoxicity whatsoever. The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue, it matters as so much as liver failure matters with acetaminophen overdoses. Opiates are safer than…

> The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue I like this point because it is complete gibberish. If you simply do not mention the side effect that makes a drug lethal, it sounds a lot like the drug does not have lethal side effects. Obviously we cannot do that with acetaminophen though, we must talk about hepatoxicity when it comes to that drug. On the one…

You misunderstood me, then.

Therapeutic doses of opiates do not cause respiratory depression, overdoses do, similarly to how acetaminophen overdoses cause hepatotoxicity, except this is not true, because regular consumption of acetaminophen causes hepatotoxicity, too, whereas opiates, when taken as prescribed, do not cause respiratory depression, in case of opiates, ONLY overdoses do, and therein lies the huge difference.

And then we did not even mention NSAIDs which cause from ulcers to cardiovascular events, even if taken as prescribed.

As for addiction, I would not like to get into the topic of addiction because a lot of people have an obsolete view on it and people already have their mind made up with regarding to it. Similarly to how my parents' generation think mental illnesses do not exist or that you can just "think away" depression.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#238

Post by tracerbulletx »

duskwuff wrote: post #181
kosma wrote: post #164

There is research correlating autism and mothers taking certain medications (painkillers, antidepressants). Since autism is hereditary, there is a significant chance that these mothers are autistic too. Autistic people have a vastly high risk of depression, and often have unusual pain thresholds, requiring more painkillers. I would not be surprised of the correlation was real, but the direction of action was reversed…

[flagged]

It's literally almost always both.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#239

Post by benregenspan »

spchampion2 wrote: post #4

Judging from the comments I've seen, nobody believes this because RFK has completely shot his credibility, and I don't blame them either. But it turns out there may actually be some emerging evidence to support this. This recent Harvard meta-analysis [1] from just last month looked at 46 different studies and suggested that there may actually be something happening here although it's not conclusive. Correlation but n…

> Further, a potential causal relationship is consistent with temporal trends—as acetaminophen has become the recommended pain reliever for pregnant mothers, the rates of ADHD and ASD have increased > 20-fold over the past decades

I do not have at all the right background to evaluate this research so treat this opinion for what it's worth, but it seems incautious for the authors to close with this note near the end. People like RFK are looking for an explanation for that 20-fold increase. But the hazard ratios in the studies with positive results seem to be along the lines of 1.05-1.20. They do also note changes in diagnosis criteria before this sentence, but it still seems like if they're going to mention a 20-fold increase, they should be even more explicit that any association with increased Tylenol use could only ever explain a very small part of that.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#240

Post by nkrisc »

johnisgood wrote: post #167
docstryder wrote: post #75

It is the safest painkiller currently available. Ibuprofen can cause gut bleeding and renal issues if overdosed on. We all know about opiates. Some facts - typical adult dose is 1g. Max suggested cap on the drug label is 3g per day (about 6 pills at usual 500mg dose). You need to take 10g (20 pills) to be at real risk of hepatotoxicity. So 10 times the typical dose is when you have overdose effects. (basically 20 pil…

> We all know about opiates No, I do not think we do, because it causes none of the side-effects associated with NSAIDs, and it is even safer than acetaminophen, i.e. there is no risk of hepatotoxicity whatsoever. The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue, it matters as so much as liver failure matters with acetaminophen overdoses. Opiates are safer than…

> The only side-effect is euphoria.

> …

> the problem is with […] people misusing / abusing them.

I think these two facts are inextricably linked, and is what makes them indirectly dangerous for some people.

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