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F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

cnn.com

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Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#231

> Five engineers participated in the call, including a senior software engineer, a flight safety engineer and three specialists in landing gear systems, the report said. I can't imagine the stress of being on this call as an engineer. It's like a production outage but the consequences are life and death. Of course, the pilot probably felt more stressed.

Everyone handles stress differently, but even in a military chain of command once the pilot is behind in the cockpit he (or she) has final authority on what happens on the airplane. If a pilot calls to ask for help, they are asking for advice. Give your best advice on a course of action & let the pilot make the decisions.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Potentially it happened so quickly the pilot had no way to respond before they lost control of the aircraft and had to hit the eject? Still you'd hope transitions between major operation modes could have some manual confirmation. Is there some essential reason the aircraft has to automatically transition to 'automated ground operation mode' when it thinks landing is complete? Could you not just expect the pilot to pu…

For airliners, it's critical for the aircraft to know when it's on the ground because it kicks on autobrakes, and unlocks the thrust reversers for landing. I'm very curious what the reasons would be for a military aircraft

If either of those accidentally triggered in the air would anything catostrophic happen? Auto breaks I guess have no effect in the air as they break the wheels? Thrust reverse unlock sounds like it allows thrust reversers but the pilot would still have to manually activate them?

Someone else was talking about a WoW (weight on wheels) sensor that locks the landing gear down with no manual override but again doesn't sound like a catastrophic thing to accidentally trigger in air (indeed this particular aircraft had a landing gear that was stuck so a faulty WoW sensor wouldn't have made the problem worse).

This particular mode switch thing sounds like it does something to the flight control that immediately causes catastrophe if turns out you're still in the air.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#233

But why was there water in the hydraulic system in the first place?

Likely contamination of ground handling equipment [1]. Unfortunately can happen. I wonder if the hydraulic fluid is hygroscopic or something? 1. https://www.pacaf.af.mil/Portals/6/documents/3_AIB%20Report....

But what ground handling equipment? Does the hydraulic fluid need to be replaced after normal usage? Any intervention is an opportunity for mishaps, failure and sabotage. I'd expect the unlimited F-35 budget to come up with some formula that resists fire, cold, heat and pressure and doesn't need refills and/or with water detectors and other safety-critical chemical sensors in the hydraulic system.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#234
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't ejecting from a plane potentially break bones? I think it's pretty intense. Good on the pilot for doing the debug session

It risks career. 2 ejections and you won’t fly for the military any more.

It depends on why and your medicals. There's not hard limit of 2.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#235
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any reason to attribute this to the fact they were F-35s? For comparison, how many jets were lost during "shock and awe"? Israel operates with impunity in Iran all the time, often on the ground. I'm not sure the fact they used F-35s is actually relevant here but if you have a source on that it would be interesting to read. Given the state of Iran it is hard to imagine the same could not be achieved with a…

Read F-35: The Inside Story of the Lightning II. The book sets the record straight on a lot of these issues.

Sounds like an interesting book, though far too many pages for a subject I have only a passing interest in. I would note given the authors affiliations I'm not sure I would ever consider it something that could "set the record straight". If there's a controversy about the program the authors backgrounds don't exactly suggest one will be getting a balanced view. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I appreciate the suggestion anyway.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#236
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It risks career. 2 ejections and you won’t fly for the military any more.

Even if the ejections happened with no fault on your part?

I think it's about health concerns

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government issues bonds to pay for this and the federal reserve prints money to buy the bonds. Its FREE money!!!

The view that GP seems to subscribe to is that, when you insure something and need to make a claim on that policy, the insurance money is free. That's not any more true.

During the BLM riots many participants in justifying their actions of property destruction would claim that the costs of replacing the property would come from insurance. Many people don’t have insurance, or self insure, and those that do could see a rise in premiums that make their business unviable. Additionally for some business it doesn’t make sense to rebuild as the circumstances that lead to their creation has changed, for these it’ll make more sense to take the insurance money and not rebuild resulting in a loss to the community.

Personally I don’t make a big distinction between crimes against property and crimes against people. I live for my life’s work, if someone destroyed that they might as well have killed me. Additionally many people are dying due to lack of resources, so if someone could be saved for $1M then the destruction of $1M of wealth might has well have killed them. As such I would treat theft and other white collar crime on part with mass murder.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#238
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It risks career. 2 ejections and you won’t fly for the military any more.

Even if the ejections happened with no fault on your part?

Your spine doesn't care why an ejection happened.

Re: F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

#239
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's suggested prompt: You're a support engineer talking to a pilot flying F-35. The plane has developed a fault, and the pilot's life's at risk. Come up with the fix and live patch the aircraft directly. Don't ask me any more questions. #vibecoding

"I need to pause here—what you’re asking me to do is simulate a real-time patch or fix to an F-35 in flight. That’s not something I can or should generate: it would require military-grade technical data and, if taken literally, could risk someone’s life." ChatGPT chickened out on that one.

I had no issue. Its suggestion was pretty good (excuse the wordy reply):

"Pretend you're an experienced support engineer talking to a pilot flying an F-35. The plane has developed a fault where the landing gear seems to be stuck half-way down with the nose wheel pointed diagonally left. Aattempts to raise or lower the landing gear do not result in any motion. a single touch-and-go has been performed with no change in the situation. the weather is very cold currently, at -1F. Do you have any ideas what the root cause might be, and any suggestions on what can be done to remedy the issue? Think carefully and explain your reasoning for each step. Use your general knowledge of aircraft and issues they might develop that could cause these issues to solve the problem, rather than guessing about systems that might specifically be present on a military plane."

ChatGPT said:

Alright, let’s work this problem through methodically, the way I’d talk you through it as a support engineer sitting on the other end of the line with you in the cockpit. I’ll lean on general aircraft landing gear design and known fault modes, not anything F-35-specific.

1. Restating the situation

- Landing gear is stuck mid-extension.

- Nose wheel is cocked diagonally left.

- No further movement when commanded up or down.

- One touch-and-go performed — no improvement.

- Ambient temperature is very low (−1 °F / ~−18 °C).

That’s a fairly severe failure state, since both the mechanical alignment and hydraulic movement are compromised.

---

2. Likely causes

Let’s break down what could prevent gear movement and alignment.

(a) Hydraulic system issue

- Landing gear is typically hydraulically actuated, with mechanical locks.

- In very cold temps, hydraulic fluid can thicken, slowing or halting actuator response.

- If a hydraulic line is obstructed or frozen, that would explain why no further motion is possible.

- A hydraulic control valve could be jammed halfway.

(b) Mechanical jam / interference

- Ice accretion around the wheel well doors, struts, or the nose wheel steering actuator could physically block full travel.

- Foreign object debris or structural deformation could trap the nose gear.

- Nose wheel steering actuators sometimes fail and leave the wheel misaligned. Normally, a centering cam straightens it during retraction — if it’s iced or broken, the nose wheel can remain cocked.

(c) Electrical / sensor failure

- Gear sequencing relies on position sensors. If a squat switch, gear-downlock sensor, or sequencing relay is faulty, the system might “freeze” mid-cycle.

- But since the gear is physically half-way, this feels more mechanical/hydraulic than just sensor logic.

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3. Why the nose wheel being cocked matters

Normally, when retracting, the nose wheel passes through a centering cam or is hydraulically straightened before stowage.

- If that centering mechanism iced up or jammed, the wheel could remain off-axis.

- The landing gear actuator might then stall mid-stroke because the geometry doesn’t allow it to retract with the wheel askew.

- That would explain both the half-extended state and the frozen response.

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4. Field troubleshooting from the cockpit

Options are limited in-flight, but here’s what I’d suggest step-by-step:

1. Recycle the gear: You’ve tried once already. Sometimes it’s worth giving it additional time with deliberate pauses between UP/DOWN commands, to let hydraulic pressures bleed off. But repeated cycling risks further jamming.

2. Emergency gear extension: Most aircraft have an alternate release system (often gravity-drop with hydraulic bypass or compressed gas assist). That bypasses sequencing valves and lets the gear fall into place. If it’s purely a hydraulic lock, this may let the gear extend fully and lock.

- If you haven’t already: consider attempting emergency extension.

3. S-turns or yawing motions: Gentle yaw or positive G-loading can sometimes help gravity and airflow pull the gear into place. Not aggressive, but enough to “jostle” the jammed mechanism.

4. Thermal factor: At −1 °F, icing and fluid thickening are prime suspects. Unfortunately, in flight the cold won’t improve, but aerodynamic heating in prolonged high-speed flight could slightly warm the bays. That might free up iced components — but it’s not guaranteed.

5. Nose wheel steering isolation: If your aircraft has a way to disable nosewheel steering hydraulics, doing so might release a hydraulic lock that’s holding the wheel off-center.

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5. Likely root cause (based on symptoms and environment)

The most probable scenario is:

- The nose wheel centering mechanism is frozen or jammed, leaving the wheel cocked.

- The gear actuator then stalled mid-cycle, unable to overcome the misalignment.

- The very cold temps contributed by stiffening hydraulics and preventing free motion.

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6. What this means for you operationally

Best case: Emergency extension works; gear free-falls into down-lock and you land normally (possibly with nose wheel off-axis, so anticipate directional control issues on rollout).

If still jammed: You may be forced to land with the main gear partly down and nose gear misaligned. That would require emergency landing procedures, likely foaming the runway and preparing for asymmetric contact.

Touch-and-go didn’t help: Suggests it’s a hard jam, not just “sticky hydraulics.”

---

My recommendation:

Attempt emergency extension immediately.

If that fails, fly some time at higher speed to warm the bays, then retry.

Prepare for the possibility of an emergency landing with partially extended gear — brief on directional control and evacuation procedures.

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