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The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

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Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#231

Post by npc_anon »

saubeidl wrote: post #78
geertj wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, 100%. I grew up in Europe, and have been in the US for the last 10+ years, with all of my family still in Europe. I think this gives me reasonable feel for the "situation on the ground." The best way I can describe my social circles in the US and EU is that in the US, we still have "principled freedom", where there (still) is a majority of people that understand the original ideas of the founding fathers, and ca…

I feel like this is an absurd position to take when people are literally being snatched off the street and being sent to torture camps in the US. The tyranny is much closer there than in the EU.

Not to mention that the Patriot Act kicked off digital surveillance and the US has far less privacy protection online, if any at all.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#232

Post by EasyMark »

concinds wrote: post #66
westpfelia wrote: post #14

"the EU wants to scan your messages" implies its every member state and not one freak from Denmark putting this forward where it will die. The EU has always been 90 days from passing mass surveliance for the last decade. Until member states start actually backing this these articles are nothing but click bait.

In previous EU presidencies it's only been defeated by a slim margin, in part thanks to grassroots pressure. The attitude of the governments in favor of it has been: "whatever, we'll keep trying and we'll get it eventually". So getting upset that people talk about it when it gets tabled once again is illogical and unjustifiable.

That's why people need to always pay attention to this stuff. They only have to win once to make it "precedent" and "the way it should be, obviously". THe people in power want to remain in power forever. This is one of the main ways they can stay there, by monitoring every single moment of our lives, even the most private of messages. Of course they will always have private back channels to collude, but the rest of us are cattle to them.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#233

Post by EasyMark »

soco wrote: post #183
concinds wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In previous EU presidencies it's only been defeated by a slim margin, in part thanks to grassroots pressure. The attitude of the governments in favor of it has been: "whatever, we'll keep trying and we'll get it eventually". So getting upset that people talk about it when it gets tabled once again is illogical and unjustifiable.

I'm confused now: is now the EU the baddie or the governments? Because these are two different entities - and not at least, also "the EU" is a group of government representatives. So folks if you're in the EU and don't like something the EU does - you do have levers, go vote, campaign, do something to move your own folks to do something on the EU level. And if you're in the US maybe better check your own backyard, I…

Both things can be true. They can try and prevent -corporate- surveillance through things like GPDR and various consumer protections that are superior to say the USA. All the while they can be trying to "slip into your DMs, all your DMs, peasant!" They are not mutually exclusive.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#234

Post by EagnaIonat »

4bpp wrote: post #117
EagnaIonat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more misunderstood than stupid. Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. Current system everything can be decrypted on the cloud and is scanned for CSAM by all ISPs/service providers. Apple wanted the device to scan for CSAM and if it…

So what would stop the list of hashes from being extended with hashes of copyrighted media, evidence of corruption (labelled slander or an invasion of the perpetrator's privacy) or evidence of the preceding abuses of the system themselves? Once you have an established mechanism for "fighting crime", "don't use it to fight that type of crime" is not a position that has any chance of prevailing in the political landsca…

> So what would stop the list of hashes from being extended with hashes of copyrighted media, evidence of corruption (labelled slander or an invasion of the perpetrator's privacy) or evidence of the preceding abuses of the system themselves?

Absolutely nothing. But they are already scanning hashes now on everything.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#235

Post by EagnaIonat »

wobfan wrote: post #69
EagnaIonat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more misunderstood than stupid. Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. Current system everything can be decrypted on the cloud and is scanned for CSAM by all ISPs/service providers. Apple wanted the device to scan for CSAM and if it…

> Realistically if countries want to read encrypted messages, they can already do so. How? Are you implying adynchronous and synchronous encryption is broken? Because last time I checked since Snowden our encryption is basically the one single thing in the whole concept of the internet that has been done very right, with forward secrecy and long term security in mind. AFAIK there are no signs that someone or somethin…

> How? Are you implying adynchronous and synchronous encryption is broken?

Not at all.

You make encryption a crime. You ban certain apps. It won't stop people using encryption but that doesn't matter. Because just the act of using it makes you a dissident that can be dealt with.

That is currently the process in Iran and Egypt for example.

Even if they can't read the message and it's not illegal you can still be guilty by association. The act of sending a message can be tracked.

There has been countless situations of that even outside the realm of instant messaging.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#236

Post by EagnaIonat »

thefz wrote: post #214
EagnaIonat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more misunderstood than stupid. Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. Current system everything can be decrypted on the cloud and is scanned for CSAM by all ISPs/service providers. Apple wanted the device to scan for CSAM and if it…

> Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. What, the cloud scanning of user photos was a good idea for you? The private companyt deciding what is good or bad idea? The automated surveillance that could lead to people wrongfully accused idea?…

> What, the cloud scanning of user photos was a good idea for you?

That is what is happening before Apples suggestion and is still happening.

> The automated surveillance that could lead to people wrongfully accused idea?

A hash scan is perfectly fine. It can tell you nothing about what is in your file except that if it matches another file that they know is CP.

Even then a flagged item has to be reviewed by law enforcement in case of a mistake and a single file is normally not enough to convict.

The chance is very slim of a mismatch. Facebook for example report a 1 in 50 billion chance of a mismatch.

To put that in context. The chance of a miss is 1 photo every 10 years across all users of facebook (approx 3 billion active users).

> If Apple can decrypt your data when they find a match, they can decrypt ALL your data.

Again. This is what is happening now for ALL service providers.

Apples suggestion was that if a file wasn't flagged it could only be decrypted by the owners device and nothing else. Not even Apple.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#237

Post by EagnaIonat »

crinkly wrote: post #116
EagnaIonat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more misunderstood than stupid. Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. Current system everything can be decrypted on the cloud and is scanned for CSAM by all ISPs/service providers. Apple wanted the device to scan for CSAM and if it…

The problem with the CSAM detection is that it can be used for adversarial purposes as well. For example if someone decides an image is politically inconvenient and pressures it to be blocked by hash, then Apple may have to comply or remove themselves from an entire market. Building the mechanism to do that is not acceptable in a civilised society. And of course does this really solve the real problem of child exploi…

> Building the mechanism to do that is not acceptable in a civilised society.

This mechanism has been in production for many years on all service providers.

Example:

- Microsoft since at least 2009.

- Google since at least 2013

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#238

Post by EagnaIonat »

fwn wrote: post #152
EagnaIonat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more misunderstood than stupid. Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. Current system everything can be decrypted on the cloud and is scanned for CSAM by all ISPs/service providers. Apple wanted the device to scan for CSAM and if it…

> CSAM is also a list of hashes for some of the worst CP video/images out there. It doesn't read anything, just hash matching. The list presumably contains CSAM hashes. However, it could also include hashes for other types of content. AFAIK the specific scope at any point in time is not something that can be fully evaluated by independent third parties, and there is no obvious reason why this list could not be extend…

CSAM scanning has been around for at least 15 years. All service providers are required to do it by law.

You are absolutely correct with your "what-ifs" and this underlines the need for more oversight and transparency.

The process (my knowledge is a few years old) is that service providers or Law enforcement from countries can submit files to the CSAM database.

The database is owned by National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC).

Once they receive the files they review them and confirm that the files meet the standard for the database, document its entry, create a hash and add that to the database. After that the file is destroyed.

This whole process requires multiple approvals and numerous humans review the files before the hash goes into the CSAM.

Also every hash has a chain of custody. So in the event of an investigation they know exactly everyone who was involved in putting that hash into CSAM.

So it's possible to submit an image that is not what CSAM is intended for, but the chances of it even remotely getting into the database is next to nothing. To add to this service providers can be sued for submitting invalid files.

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#239

Post by thefz »

EagnaIonat wrote: post #236
thefz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked. What, the cloud scanning of user photos was a good idea for you? The private companyt deciding what is good or bad idea? The automated surveillance that could lead to people wrongfully accused idea?…

> What, the cloud scanning of user photos was a good idea for you? That is what is happening before Apples suggestion and is still happening. > The automated surveillance that could lead to people wrongfully accused idea? A hash scan is perfectly fine. It can tell you nothing about what is in your file except that if it matches another file that they know is CP. Even then a flagged item has to be reviewed by law enfo…

Are you OK with private companies basically playing the police with your data?

Re: The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025

#240

Post by [deleted] »

thefz wrote: post #239
EagnaIonat wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What, the cloud scanning of user photos was a good idea for you? That is what is happening before Apples suggestion and is still happening. > The automated surveillance that could lead to people wrongfully accused idea? A hash scan is perfectly fine. It can tell you nothing about what is in your file except that if it matches another file that they know is CP. Even then a flagged item has to be reviewed by law enfo…

Are you OK with private companies basically playing the police with your data?

[deleted]
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