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Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

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Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#231

Post by vjvjvjvjghv »

cujo wrote: post #110
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basketball isn’t as demanding physically as cycling. You need to be fit but not to the extreme degree cycling demands. I would expect doping to be most beneficial in sports where pure physicality is needed. Marathon, triathlon, track running.

have you seen the physiques and workloads that nba/nhl/mlb players are dealing with these days? these athletes have more incentive than cyclists to dope ($$$), and the testing in those sports is a joke. there are obvious performance benefits for traditional endurance sports, but the testing infrastructure is pretty robust and the financial incentives are much less than those big team sports. it's harder to dope (and…

I totally believe that a lot of basketball/football/baseball players take something. But the effect won’t be as important as in cycling or marathon or 100 m sprint where you need pure physicality.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#232

Post by gambiting »

ortusdux wrote: post #230
Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

How much breaking is done during a race? Would a KERS style motor w/ capacitor be beneficial?

There is no way to do this unless the motor is inside the wheel hub and that would be instantly obvious - regular hubs are super thin and wouldn't fit a motor + capacitor inside them. And you'd need to tell it you want to brake somehow.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#233

Post by daemonologist »

ortusdux wrote: post #230
Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

How much breaking is done during a race? Would a KERS style motor w/ capacitor be beneficial?

It would be extremely beneficial, but nearly impossible to integrate. Motors used for cheating in cycling are usually in the seat tube or down tube, where they can invisibly interface with the bottom bracket (between the pedals) and connect to batteries elsewhere in the frame. Because bicycles have a freewheel in the rear hub (chain doesn't move while coasting/braking)*, a KERS would have to be located in the tiny rear wheel hub.

*You can of course get a non-race bike with a fixed chain, but UCI rules require use of a freewheel.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#234

Post by polivier »

Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

> would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage

Bikes in the Tour de France have a minimum weight of 6.8kg imposed by the UCI. So if you manage to build a normal bike that weights 5kg, you still have 1.8kg of weight available to try to add some more hidden power "without adding more weight to the bike" (small battery+engine, small compressed air tank, whatever).

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#235

Post by cogman10 »

Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

The bikes have a weight regulation that was set in the 90s, 6.8kg.

Ultra light bikes can be as light weight as 2.7kg. That gives 4kg to hide a battery and motor and still hit weight. A really good lithium battery offers 350 Wh/kg. 1kWh can grant 100 miles of range by itself.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#236

Post by nradov »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #190
bsenftner wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I include "massive leagues". If a city or school district is large enough to impel doping, the entire premise of sport is undermined. Why even bother, the entire enterprise becomes nothing about the sport and everything about "getting noticed, using this platform to stairstep to going pro!!!" It is just exploitative capitalism driving people insane.

I assume a not insignificant portion of people, especially men, are taking steroids/testosterone/human growth hormone or whatever else to augment their fitness.

Yes, a large proportion of older age-group endurance athletes are taking some sort of (legal) hormone therapy and then racing without having the required TUE in place. There is virtually zero blood testing in local amateur races so they just cheat and never get caught.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#237

Post by registeredcorn »

Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

> I'd rather believe they're doping.

Funnily enough, you're correct in your belief, even if by accident and in defiance of your own preconception. Mechanical doping is the topic your speaking about! :)

Here's some of the more obvious examples out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSfLbALqUgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZerARsCqAE

https://youtu.be/1CnyvcAFTlA?t=36

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbg4BjZna4Y

This video covers a bit of the history of mechanical doping. https://youtu.be/JMZbU6on43k?t=610

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#238

Post by bogdan »

sumo89 wrote: post #113
gwelson wrote: post #16

I am definitely a layperson when it comes to organized sports, but from my POV it seems like competitive cycling attracts WAY more fraud/cheating/doping/etc. than many other kinds of sports. At least I have heard about it a lot more. I wonder why that is.

It's the most tested sport by far. Mostly because a couple of huge scandals - Festina and Armstrong. It's an endurance sport which is a natural target for doping because of the huge gains that can be made and it's also probably the most popular endurance sport too. That said, it's a problem in other sports but they just don't test as much or publicise it as much. It's become a real problem in Rugby, https://www.bbc.c…

> it's also probably the most popular endurance sport

I believe long distance running takes that spot

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#239

Post by rkomorn »

dansmith1919 wrote: post #221
adolph wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its real and I find it technologically fascinating as they were using the frame and wheel as motor. In January 2016 – almost six years after initial allegations of a pro cyclist doping mechanically – the first confirmed use of "mechanical doping" in the sport was discovered at the 2016 UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships when one of the bikes of Belgian cyclist Femke Van den Driessche was found to have a secret motor…

"Mechanical doping" what a nice way to say they're cheating

I think that's just a natural progression from the fact that doping was the main way to cheat in the past, so "mechanical" doping is just the new doping.

But also: no one's ever thought doping wasn't cheating anyway. It's certainly not a euphemism in cycling.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#240

Post by LanceH »

jajko wrote: post #144
tokai wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greg LeMond has been on a whole motodoping tour online recently to stay relevant. He clearly does not understand modern cycling and he has a ton of people he wants to put down for the sake of his own reputation. There is not reason to believe him more than a crazy uncle.

Sometimes those folks just tell the truth. Now if you are OK with cheating and this just annoys you that's another story but lets be honest here - professional cycling became pathetic deplorable 'sport' full of jokes of sportsmen that should not be respected or admired in any way, in contrary. Half of Olympics is heading that way but for some reason cycling was and still is ahead of the curve for quite some time. I'l…

> professional cycling became pathetic deplorable 'sport' full of jokes of sportsmen that should not be respected or admired in any way

And yet we have the major sports who don't test in any meaningful way.

Maybe the mistake cycling made was testing for real. If they tested like the major sports do, nobody would ever be caught.

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