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How I Use Kagi

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Re: How I Use Kagi

#231

Post by cosmicgadget »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #198
cosmicgadget wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hypocritical to set the bar at a given place, like an ongoing war of territorial expansion and child abduction run by an autocrat that won't be replaced until his death. One with near complete popular support.

Are you talking about the United States? Like, yes, the Russian regime is awful, but how are you looking around at the the world and not applying the same standards to the US?

Can we just stop at the "yes the Russian regime (and oligarchy and substantial popular support) is awful" part? Because that is really all you need to reasonably boycott Yandex. Is it good to be ideologically consistent? Absolutely! Is it required? Not if you're aiming to reduce the amount of evil in the world.

Redirecting discussion about Russia's shittiness to a criticism of the US is a dumb propaganda tactic that a lot of people here are engaging in. And many others are swallowing. I'm happy to talk about the US or NATO or Israel, just not with the partisans who for some reason assume I fully support any of the above.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#232

Post by rustcleaner »

freediver wrote: post #85
jwr wrote: post #12

Unfortunately, Kagi works with Russian companies and pays them money, which in my book is a no-no. I do not want any of my money to contribute to the Russian economy in any way, because I know what is happening to people in Ukraine. (I was a Kagi subscriber, no more, because of this)

Kagi founder here. I notice you bring this up consistently in Kagi discussions. A search engine's job is to deliver the best possible results. We evaluate API sources on search quality, not geopolitics. Yandex represents 2% of our costs but contributes meaningfully to search quality - removing it would harm all users while having minimal economic impact. We've used their API since 2019 and evaluate all sources purely…

Your steadfastness against the politics of the "Modern Lens" astounds me. You are a refreshing drink of cold water on a hot Mojave summer day.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#233

Post by jszymborski »

dcow wrote: post #225
jszymborski wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Just because acting ethically isn't always easy, doesn't mean you need to give up on every cause.

The point is not to not try and support causes you believe in, it’s about acting in an internally consistent way. If you don’t support war, then you cannot indirectly support anything that has any part in supporting any war anywhere. You can’t pick and choose which wars and products are convenient enough to stand against while funding Google’s amoral corporate, US tax paying, attention machine because you won’t use a…

> If you don’t support war...

Wait, can't I just not support _this_ war? I don't think the invasion of a peaceful democratic country is OK, so that means it is morally inconsistent for me to believe it was right and just for the allies to go to war with the axis powers?

> You can’t pick and choose which wars and products are convenient enough to stand against while funding Google’s amoral corporate, US tax paying, attention machine because you won’t use a product which almost certainly undoubtably has contributed to vastly less harm than Kagi has.

What you're saying here is that, since it's hard to stand for the right things, you shouldn't try standing for anything. If only those without sin could do good, we really should just pack it in.

> But to go piss on some product because they don’t have quite the same moral alignment as you do is rather silly and it’s entirely fair to see people calling this immature behavior out.

Listen, there are some people who won't feel good about a product if they think it's going to make tomorrow worse. It's, shockingly, not about Kagi, or about you, but strictly about how some people wish to govern _themselves_. Kagi can make the decisions it wants, it's not a moral entity, it's a for-profit company which means its sole purpose is to seek profits. In fact, I'm not even trying to pick on Kagi here, generally speaking I think my values align with the product on offer.

The point stands though that corporations get to make decisions as to whether or not the ethical dilemmas they face are worth the customers (future and present) they'll lose over it.

> ...while funding Google’s amoral corporate, US tax paying, attention machine because you won’t use a product which almost certainly undoubtably has contributed to vastly less harm than Kagi has.

Why it's particularly relevant for Kagi to care about this sort of thing is that the users, like myself, who do not use Google and are willing to go through pains (be it worse results or monthly fees) to not fund them, are exactly the kind of person who won't use a service for not divesting from the Russian economy.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#234

Post by dcow »

jszymborski wrote: post #228
dcow wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition precisely noting is apolitical. And that’s really the point, isn‘t it? Kagi values search quality over virtue signaling in line with whichever way the wind is blowing. Also, do Kagi’s Russian users deserve to be punished because of their leader’s actions? Is that virtuous?

> By that definition precisely noting is apolitical. I'm with you > Kagi values search quality over virtue signaling in line with whichever way the wind is blowing. Wait, when did I suggest that they adopt values based on "whichever way the wind is blowing"? I'm just asking them to not support the economy of a country whose invaded another free and democratic country for the purpose of expansion, and has engaged in w…

You’re asking.

There isn’t a moral truth here. It’s just politics. Prove to me that Kagi’s support of Yandex has uniquely enabled a Russian war crime and maybe we could start having a real discussion about whether Kagi is morally culpable. Prove that Kagi is committing more harm than my other options. Prove that Kagi is committing more harm than the good that quality search results provides the world, provides people who are fighting and speaking against the war.

Otherwise yes this level of guilt by hand waving association based on making you feel good in the moment is exactly the definition of virtue signaling.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#235

Post by apexskier »

As a refinement on this, if you're not comfortable blocking these results entirely, Kagi allows you to lower their relevance in your results rather than simply blocking outright.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#236

Post by dcow »

jszymborski wrote: post #233
dcow wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not to not try and support causes you believe in, it’s about acting in an internally consistent way. If you don’t support war, then you cannot indirectly support anything that has any part in supporting any war anywhere. You can’t pick and choose which wars and products are convenient enough to stand against while funding Google’s amoral corporate, US tax paying, attention machine because you won’t use a…

> If you don’t support war... Wait, can't I just not support _this_ war? I don't think the invasion of a peaceful democratic country is OK, so that means it is morally inconsistent for me to believe it was right and just for the allies to go to war with the axis powers? > You can’t pick and choose which wars and products are convenient enough to stand against while funding Google’s amoral corporate, US tax paying, at…

You are welcome to govern yourself however you want. I said that. But if you actually think that Kagi is going to make tomorrow worse then all I can say is, “good luck out there”.

I prefer to use my valuable time and limited attention supporting causes I care about in ways that actually matter and are consistent. I don’t need to “govern myself” to be happy. I don’t extend moral culpability for harmful actions beyond those who commit them. I don’t hold the inventor of the scientific method responsible for all the harm scientific discoveries have caused.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#237

Post by dcminter »

dcow wrote: post #218
GoatInGrey wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cancelled my kagi subscription upon seeing this response. I donate to Ukraine to defend itself from Russia. I lost a family member to Russian artillery as well while providing medical aid to civilians. I very much do not want my dollars to fund the very thing that my donations are intended to defend against. I'm going to assume you run a similar policy with Chinese search providers. After seeing Chinese warships of…

Conversely, Vlad’s strong sense of engaging in ethical business and utmost respect for and understanding of what it means to remain neutral is precisely why I use Kagi, and why I believe Kagi will beat Google in the long run—why I invested in Kagi.

> why I invested in Kagi

Do you mean in the sense of investing in your tools, or do you mean that you're one of Kagi's investors?

Re: How I Use Kagi

#238

Post by Tadpole9181 »

PokemonNoGo wrote: post #3

Do they still use Yandex? >I’ve been a happy Kagi user since early 2023 I was an unhappy Kagi user when I learnt it relied on Russian back ends fueling a war. Now I'm not a user anymore.

That's one of the reasons I canceled my subscription as well.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#239

Post by seabass »

freediver wrote: post #189
seabass wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, they had me check my proximity to the nearest Google Cloud region. The ping was ~30ms, so that was pretty unlikely to be the cause. In my screen recordings that compared the exact same searches, despite the low ping, Kagi results wouldn’t appear for around 2s. A search I did just now shows “39 relevant results in 1.7s”. Otoh with Google it feels instant—0.29s for that same search. With their support team we neve…

Please reach out to me at vlad@kagi.com and we'll set you up on an account (on us) and I'll personally get involved to see what is happening. Most our searches complete in less than 1000ms. We do dig much deeper than Google though, and we more often than not place what you are looking for in the top 3 results - and that has to count for something too.

Very kind of you! Just reached out. And I agree, the lack of sponsored results among the top 3 and overall quality of the results are valuable.

Re: How I Use Kagi

#240

Post by dcow »

eldaisfish wrote: post #165
throw123xz wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people do avoid US companies for the reasons you've mentioned. People tend to care more about what they are familiar with. Someone in Zimbabwe probably cares more about the war in Sudan and avoids dealing with the countries involved than with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and use Russian products. Same with someone in Iran, they probably care more about Syria and Palestine, and avoid Israeli products while usi…

it is this plus the ability to affect the world. I have no dog in the US / Russia debate but i recognise that both have tremendous ability to affect the world. Same with China and i avoid chinese products where I can. That said, i'm much less concerned about North Korea, compared to Russia. The latter has sophisticated weapons and military tactics. North Korea may be an evil state but its small population and economy…

So why bias the US over Russia on the morality scale?
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