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IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

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Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#231

Post by afavour »

Volundr wrote: post #164
arghwhat wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matter doesn't need internet access, it's an entirely local protocol even when you integrate to other vendor ecosystems. Now, something like Google Home might decide to go online to talk to a Google Home Hub device, which is where Google wants to initiate all Matter communication from, but that's a Google thing, not a Matter thing.

Technically Matter itself doesn't require Internet access, but you'll come across many devices that won't operate (or even join) without a functioning border router. What's in the spec and the lived experience are sort of different here.

But wouldn't the same issue apply to Zigbee in that case?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#232

Post by dzhiurgis »

turtlebits wrote: post #112
macNchz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really ca…

Home Assistant "just works". Yes it has a ton of knobs, but in the 3 years I've been running it, it's had no issues. Certain manufacturer devices being flaky, yes, but as a platform, it's been rock solid. I've not touched its config in over a year and everything works as it should.

Yes it just works, but it's soooo difficult, here's my annoyances:

00. Installation method - you don't flash ISO into your thumb drive, no you boot ubuntu from usb drive, THEN download ISO and THEN flash your boot drive. This caught so many people. RTFM of course but FM should just say this in huge letters - BOOT UBUNTU FROM USB FIRST.

0. Host method - you either run this in docker and don't get like half features (add-on store) OR install HAOS and don't have access to your device anymore. Wanna use your computer for something else? Tough choice.

1. Integrations vs add-ons vs HACS - why is this so complicated. Add-ons only work when you run HAOS, but HACS works on any installation method. I've spent so much time moving from docker to HAOS just to realize HACS store works with with docker.

2. Root - I've succumbed to running HAOS and now I have no idea how to get root remote root access. Yes I can connect keyboard and a monitor which I had to get for this reason only and there's 0 fun to work on basic terminal on a high res monitor where you can't change font size.

3. UI performance - wanna explore data from one of the devices - either select all sensors from it and let UI crash trying to display 50 charts or pick sensor one by one (with broken scroll on desktop app).

4. Copy paste - how did they managed to break this on their desktop app is beyond me.

5. Disorienting UI - whenever I wanna reboot something I'm pissed off. Whenever I wanna find integration or add-on - I'm pissed off. Why there's media and to-do list? Why do I have to enable professional mode to unlock some menu's?

6. Bizarre way of doing things - wanna add derivative sensor? Install file editor, find some file, then fight fucking YAML syntax and then maybe reboot or reload or restart. Good luck! Why I need to add home assistant user and create password for my light switch?

Bonus. They are not selling their own device (which is great way to get started) and offering some cloud subscription which usually is on path of enshitiffication.

And don't get me wrong, there are things that it does't great and is very powerful and useful, but man it is difficult.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#233

Post by ianburrell »

nick__m wrote: post #8

I don't understand the problem that thread solves that zigbee doesn't! The article says that thread doesn't require a hub but it require a border gateway that is almost indistinguishable from a hub. And as far as my home assistant setup is concerned, it doesn't require a hub, only a zigbee radio. The only thing that seems to advantage thread is manufacturers support, but I don't see what's stopped them to regroup aro…

Thread can talk to your phone using a gateway. Thread is IPv6 based. The gateway, called border router, is no different than access point in function.

Current systems require a hub, talk protocol to hub, hub talks Zigbee to device. Home Assistant is great, but you still need device running it. Thread requires border router, but that is simpler device and only does networking.

Matter is the other part of Zigbee, the home automation profile. I get the impression it is bloated with multiple companies involved, but it is standard. Matter means that your phone can talk to Wifi device with your choice of apps.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#234

Post by op00to »

waste_monk wrote: post #161
op00to wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ZWaveJS used to break frequently for me, but I run an HA container on a Linux box, rather than the HAOS or whatever. I control the updates, and can rollback if things break, so it's not really a problem.

I installed Home Assistant recently and the docs suggest HAOS is the strongly preferred option these days. Something about HAOS uses docker to install and manage extensions, whereas if you run the HA docker container it can't as docker-inside-docker isn't supported (?), and thus some functionality is unavailable (at least at the surface level).

I'm sure the support burden is much easier on HAOS. I don't use any Home Assistant extensions, I don't even know what they are. I use a number of custom integrations, but I manage them all through github and github actions. I'm doing great with just running the containers with podman - just need to keep ZWaveJS and Home Assistant in sync and I don't run into problems.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#236

Post by CharlesW »

OptionOfT wrote: post #107
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

I don't think that is entirely correct. Just like Apple HomeKit you can add devices that aren't certified. It shows a warning, but apart from that it functions like a normal device (for as far as I can tell). I have been using https://github.com/t0bst4r/home-assistant-matter-hub to expose my home assistant devices to Google Home without having to expose my Home Assistant to the cloud. Second, certification is what se…

> Just like Apple HomeKit you can add devices that aren't certified. It shows a warning, but apart from that it functions like a normal device (for as far as I can tell).

Correct.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#237

Post by CharlesW »

pavon wrote: post #200
arghwhat wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, this is the same organization that developed Zigbee, which requires paid certification - without, you're not allowed to say the product supports Zigbee or to use the Zigbee logo. You can connect devices without this, it just shows a warning during commissioning that the device is not certified. No impact whatsoever.

So by analogy, Zigbee is like USB in that it encourages certification through trademarks, while Matter is like HDCP or Blu-ray in that it enforces certification through technical means (cryptographic signatures)?

> …while Matter is like HDCP or Blu-ray in that it enforces certification through technical means (cryptographic signatures)?

It doesn't even enforce that. You are free to use uncertified devices on your Matter network, as hobbyists making their own Matter devices can attest.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#238

Post by ocdtrekkie »

whitehexagon wrote: post #27

I only recently discovered and invested in the IKEA ZigBee hardware, about the only product their MBAs havent destroyed. The hardware is very well built, and sensibly priced. What I liked most of all was that the hub was optional, and thus no cloud account required. I ended up pairing mine with a 'ConBee II' and with a bit of Go code was able to receive sensor data with very little latency, and activate switches and…

My house is largely Insteon-based, which used to be backwards-compatible with X10.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#240

Post by AlecSchueler »

Toutouxc wrote: post #31
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a…

> if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home

I would think that as smart homes become more popular the number of people not using the defaults will rapidly decrease and manufacturers will be less and less beholden to them.

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