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OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

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Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#231
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is all of that truely "waste", if it is being paid toward onshore companies? The money doesn't disappear, it gets redistributed to American companies.

Broken Window Fallacy. We could be spending it on things with a much higher return.

We're also talking about a governmental body. Generating the highest returns possible is a non-goal, and disregarding potentially useful things simply because they aren't the best possible use of funds is an easy way to just never do anything.

Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Value" is a loaded term as used here. Not all value is economic. Most value has a degree of judgement involved. No it isn't. Most value CAN be objectively measured. I'll give you examples. US outspends all the other developed nations at healthcare, education, childcare and yet is behind them all in actual results with poor education, high infant motility and lower life expectancy. That's what waste and corruption d…

> US outspends all the other developed nations at healthcare, education, childcare and yet is behind them all in actual results with poor education, high infant motility and lower life expectancy US healthcare and childcare are private, not government. Likewise I suspect much of the education cost is private colleges/schools, not government. You seem to be arguing that the private sector is less efficient and more co…

“ the private sector is less efficient and more corrupt than the public sector”

That is easily the case if you aren’t careful. Private health insurance has a big incentive to drive up cost of the medical sector so they can take a few percent as profit. Defense contractors have almost no incentive to reduce costs, quite the opposite.

I guess it depends on what you call efficiency. If you define efficiency as extracting maximum profit then modern corporations are very efficient. If you define it as providing products and services at low cost, then they are inefficient.

Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US outspends all the other developed nations at healthcare, education, childcare and yet is behind them all in actual results with poor education, high infant motility and lower life expectancy US healthcare and childcare are private, not government. Likewise I suspect much of the education cost is private colleges/schools, not government. You seem to be arguing that the private sector is less efficient and more co…

>US healthcare [...] are private, not government. What's Medicare and Medicaid and why do they cost the government over 2 trillion? On a per capital basis, even if you don't include private healthcare spending, the US stil spends more per capita on healthcare than the other developed countries. https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-does-government-healthcare-...

> why do they cost the government over 2 trillion?

Because these are interacting with and purchasing services from a market-driven healthcare system which is optimized for profit, not health outcomes.

Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DOGE found basically nothing, and they worked with an axe trying to cut anything that come close to waste. So I am not sure where you see all this "waste and corruption".

Bad faith argument. Why are you moving the discussion to DOGE when that's not what I was talking about? You know the word "governments" that I used, means a lot more than the current TRUMP administration, right? Broaden your mind and PoV. And also, how can you say with a straight face there isn't ongoing and never has been waste and corruption in any government? Again, think for yourself, ignore $CURRENT_EVENTS. Look…

I lived in DC for years, so i've had this discussion probably 8000 times already. Time for 8001 i guess.

Let's separate waste and corruption - they are fairly different things.

Let's then split waste into:

1. Programs (don't care who) thinks are not worth doing or shouldn't be done by government, or whatever - IE the overhead is not what people are arguing about, and even if the program had zero overhead, and government was being as efficient as possible, still thinks it shouldn't exist.

2. Programs with high overhead or otherwise seem inefficient.

There are other things you can consider waste, but this feels like the majority of what people argue about.

#1 is often subject to widely varied views on what government should be doing or you name it. For this discussion, you can be and decide which fall into #1 and which fall into #2 :) We'll just assume literally everything in #1 is waste and should be killed.

If you kill everything that people initially think falls into #1, the US would probably spend no money. The majority of the budget is covered by things people think they disagree about, and want gone or not gone or whatever.

However, for most people , if you remove the ignorance of what things are and what they are doing, and then you killed everything that actually falls into #1, it would not make a huge dent in the US budget. This is because the majority of people tend to support, at least in the sense of saying it doesn't being in #1, the things that are actually the majority of the US budget.

and then we'll ignore #1, because reducing the overhead wouldn't matter, and if you take the same view as most people, it will not be a big pile when you get down to brass tacks.

Let's talk about #2.

#2 is often subject to arguments about the overhead. This is much easier to discuss.

Most arguments about the overhead are about how high it is. This is, IMHO, not a useful measure at all.

Asking whether something has high overhead doesn't tell you what to do if the answer is "yes".

Better questions to ask (IMHO) are "Do i want the outcome this program achieves" (if not, it falls into #1), and then "Can i get the outcome on the same timeframe, with less overhead, and enough less overhead that it's worth it".

The answer to the latter is often no.

Sometimes it's yes in a theoretical sense (should it be possible to achieve the outcome for less money), but still no in a practical sense (can you actually pay someone to achieve the outcome for less money), even if you removed bureaucratic constraints (IE just stuck with the real requirements to achieve the outcome).

Often times it's no practically because of scale- i can have 4 hard drives delivered by amazon tomorrow at 8am. I can't get them to deliver 4 million by tomorrow. On top of that, even if they could, while the odds are they are not the only people who could deliver 4, they may be the only people who can deliver 4 million. In that case, they have no reason to not charge me a near infinite amount of money since nobody else can do what i want. So it is very high overhead, but you can't actually reduce the overhead without changing the requirements. So if you want the outcome, as is, you have to accept the overhead.

Plenty of times it's no in both the theoretical sense, and the practical sense, because notions of overhead amounts are wrong, and things are not as high overhead as people seem to believe. As an example, people continue to think USAID has high overhead, but it actually does not by any objective measure. In USAID's case, it just has funny accounting called NICRA. Anyone who digs enough to actually calculate the real overhead, consistently discover (and agree) it's competitive with private organizations that do the same. See, e.g., https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/sorry-i-still-think-mr-is-w... for a reasonably new example of someone discovering this.

Of course, there is certainly plenty of waste in government, but it's a lot less than people think.

Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#235
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov > On 26 September 1983, three weeks after the Soviet military had shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, Petrov was the duty officer at the command center for the Oko nuclear early-warning system when the system reported that a missile had been launched from the United States, followed by up to four more. Petrov judged the reports to be a false alarm.

The irony is that he was both successful and a failure, a contradiction inherent in nuclear launch control. From a deterrence and military perspective, you want a robot on launch control. Every time, on orders, without fail. From a human and ethical perspective, you want a thinking individual with agency. Able evaluate orders and possibly disobey them. Curious at the height of the Cold War (and now), what percentage…

"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration I've come to the conclusion, sir, that your new defense system sucks."

Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#236
post #3

Does anyone have any idea what the DoD could possibly want from OpenAI? Less accurate/more sycophantic missiles?

No. People see "defense" and immediately think everything is a weapon, for some reason. The DoD is still an organization with exactly the same business functions as wherever you work. This is likely going to be something more or less like the ChatGPT for Gov thing. You ask it to summarize videos and articles, review a document you're writing, spruce it up, whatever the rest of you are doing with LLMs, but you're allowed to use it from a locked down DoD workstation that can't access public web services.

Re: OpenAI wins $200M U.S. defense contract

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has there been value delivered proportional to the money spent at reasonable market rates? If not, then money was wasted via incompetence, pocketed via corruption, or both. I'm going to unpack this a little. The second sentence does not actually follow from the question asked by the first sentence. "Value" is a loaded term as used here. Not all value is economic. Most value has a degree of judgement involved. I may…

>"Value" is a loaded term as used here. Not all value is economic. Most value has a degree of judgement involved. No it isn't. Most value CAN be objectively measured. I'll give you examples. US outspends all the other developed nations at healthcare, education, childcare and yet is behind them all in actual results with poor education, high infant motility and lower life expectancy. That's what waste and corruption d…

> Germany beats France at military spending and yet it's military is significantly less capable than France's.

No idea if that's true. But my impression was that France's military has been rather more...active post WW2 than Germany's. So maybe it's just about practice and readiness to go to war.

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