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The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

garymarcus.substack.com

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Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try steel manning in order to effectively persuade. This comment does not address the argument being made it just calls a field of study icky. Disagree (the article linked in the GP is a great read with extensive and specific citations) and reminder that you can just make the comment you'd like to see instead of trying to meta sea lion it into existence. Steel man away.

The article linked is literally nothing but a collection of Alexander's comments and comments on his blog. It in no way provides any reason to believe he is wrong, it just laughs at him, strawmaning his takes.

He just wrote a piece about the Lynn IQ maps that is practically a self-parody. Nobody needs to strawman him on this topic. Here is a direct quote:

Isn't It Super-Racist To Say That People In Sub-Saharan African Countries Have IQs Equivalent To Intellectually Disabled People? No. In fact, it would be super-racist not to say this!

The horse is completely out of the barn on this controversy about Alexander's views.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#232
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Yudkowsky is more like 90% sure of us all dying in a few ( I mean, this is their new book: https://ifanyonebuildsit.com/

> We do not mean that as hyperbole. We are not exaggerating for effect. We think that is the most direct extrapolation from the knowledge, evidence, and institutional conduct around artificial intelligence today. In this book, we lay out our case. Take us seriously, buy our book! We're real researchers, so we make our definitely scientific case available to anyone who will give us $15-$30! It's the most important boo…

Because of what else he writes besides the fanfic. (Better question is why anyone takes JKR herself seriously).

But if you insist on only listening to people with academic acolades or industrial output, there's this other guy who got the Rumelhart Prize (2001), Turing Award (2018), Dickson Prize (2021), Princess of Asturias Award (2022), Nobel Prize in Physics (2024), VinFuture Prize (2024), Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering (2025), Order of Canada, Fellow of the Royal Society, and Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada

That's one person with all that, and he says there's a "10 to 20 per cent chance" that AI would be the cause of human extinction within the following three decades, and "it is hard to see how you can prevent the bad actors from using [AI] for bad things.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Hinton

Myself, I'm closer to Hinton's view than Yudkowsky's: path dependency, i.e. I expect that before we get existential threat from AI, we get catastrophic economic threat the precludes existential threat.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#233
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence distributions are not the same among the different racial groups

Oh so your idea is we shouldn't criticize scientific racists because they're right? No, we criticize them because they're wrong, the whole thing is made up pseudoscience as window-dressing for bigotry.

[flagged]

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article linked is literally nothing but a collection of Alexander's comments and comments on his blog. It in no way provides any reason to believe he is wrong, it just laughs at him, strawmaning his takes.

He just wrote a piece about the Lynn IQ maps that is practically a self-parody. Nobody needs to strawman him on this topic. Here is a direct quote: Isn't It Super-Racist To Say That People In Sub-Saharan African Countries Have IQs Equivalent To Intellectually Disabled People? No. In fact, it would be super-racist not to say this! The horse is completely out of the barn on this controversy about Alexander's views.

He is 100% right that it is more racist to ignore the IQ difference between countries and therefore the factors that create them than it is to pretend all countries have the same average iq. The only way to help people who have been hurt by environmental factors that hurt development is to study those factors and who they effect.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He just wrote a piece about the Lynn IQ maps that is practically a self-parody. Nobody needs to strawman him on this topic. Here is a direct quote: Isn't It Super-Racist To Say That People In Sub-Saharan African Countries Have IQs Equivalent To Intellectually Disabled People? No. In fact, it would be super-racist not to say this! The horse is completely out of the barn on this controversy about Alexander's views.

He is 100% right that it is more racist to ignore the IQ difference between countries and therefore the factors that create them than it is to pretend all countries have the same average iq. The only way to help people who have been hurt by environmental factors that hurt development is to study those factors and who they effect.

No, there are no such thing as IQ maps. They're fraudulent. He's defending fraudulent data.

Now you understand the reaction you (and he) are getting on this.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is 100% right that it is more racist to ignore the IQ difference between countries and therefore the factors that create them than it is to pretend all countries have the same average iq. The only way to help people who have been hurt by environmental factors that hurt development is to study those factors and who they effect.

No, there are no such thing as IQ maps . They're fraudulent. He's defending fraudulent data. Now you understand the reaction you (and he) are getting on this.

As I said, pretending different countries don’t have different average iq is a massive mistake and only leads to people listening to the racists more. You can’t trick people on this by ignoring it.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there are no such thing as IQ maps . They're fraudulent. He's defending fraudulent data. Now you understand the reaction you (and he) are getting on this.

As I said, pretending different countries don’t have different average iq is a massive mistake and only leads to people listening to the racists more. You can’t trick people on this by ignoring it.

You have no evidence to support that claim. The evidence Alexander mustered for it has been utterly discredited. The claim is itself racist! But that's not the biggest problem with it; the biggest problem is that it's fabricated.

There's a reason I'm confident about this, and it's not wokeness or an overconfidence in molecular genetics or whatever. It's that there has never been a global effort to collect per-country representative average IQs. The notion that there is, somewhere, a map relating countries to IQs is a racist fever dream.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#238
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh so your idea is we shouldn't criticize scientific racists because they're right? No, we criticize them because they're wrong, the whole thing is made up pseudoscience as window-dressing for bigotry.

[flagged]

It is extremely deniable that intelligence distributions are "not the same across races" (whatever it is we might mean by "races"), and by citing Alexander as your support for that claim, your argument has become circular.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#239
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We do not mean that as hyperbole. We are not exaggerating for effect. We think that is the most direct extrapolation from the knowledge, evidence, and institutional conduct around artificial intelligence today. In this book, we lay out our case. Take us seriously, buy our book! We're real researchers, so we make our definitely scientific case available to anyone who will give us $15-$30! It's the most important boo…

Because of what else he writes besides the fanfic. (Better question is why anyone takes JKR herself seriously). But if you insist on only listening to people with academic acolades or industrial output, there's this other guy who got the Rumelhart Prize (2001), Turing Award (2018), Dickson Prize (2021), Princess of Asturias Award (2022), Nobel Prize in Physics (2024), VinFuture Prize (2024), Queen Elizabeth Prize for…

I do say the same think about JKR, btw. And for the same things, because the content she writes. I think you focused on the fanfic part and not the part where I'm criticizing where they say their stuff is the most important to keep humanity alive and they're charging money for it. Meanwhile, you may notice in academia we publish papers to make them freely available, like on arXiv. If it is that important that people need to know, you make it available.

The second person, Hinton, is not as good of an authority as you'd expect. Though I do understand why people take him seriously. Fwiw, his Nobel was wildly controversial. Be careful, prizes often have political components. I have degrees in both CS and physics (and am an ML researcher) and both communities thought it was really weird. I'll let you guess which community found it insulting.

I want to remind you, in 2016 Hinton famously said[0]

  | Let me start by saying a few things that seem obvious. I think if you work as a radiologist, you're like the coyote that's already over the edge of the cliff, but hasn't yet looked down so doesn't realize there's no ground beneath him. People should stop training radiologists now. It's just completely obvious that within 5 years that deep learning is going to be better than radiologists because it's going to get a lot more experience. It might take 10 years, but we've got plenty of radiologists already.
We're 10 years in now. Hinton has shown he's about as good at making predictions as Musk. What Hinton thought was laughably obvious actually didn't happen. He's made a number of such predictions. I'll link another small explanation from him[1] because it is so similar to something Sutskever said[2]. I can tell you with high certainty that every physicist laughs at such a claim. We've long experienced that being able to predict data does not equate to understanding that data[3].

I care very much about alignment myself[4,5,6,7]. The reason I push back on Yud and others making claims like they do is because they are actually helping create the future they say we should be afraid of. I'm not saying they're evil or directly making evil superintelligences. Rather, they're pulling attention and funds away from the problems that need to be solved. They are guessing about things we don't need to guess about. They are making confidently asserting claims we know to be false (to be able to make accurate predictions requires accurate understanding[8]). Without being able to openly and honestly speak to the limitations of our machines (mainly blinded by excitement), we create these exact dangers we worry about. I'm not calling for a pause on research, I'm calling for more research and more people to pay attention to the subtle nature of everything. In a way I am saying "slow down" but only in that I'm saying don't ignore the small stuff. We move so fast that we keep pushing off the small stuff, but the AI risk comes through the accumulation of debt. You need to be very careful to not let that debt get out of control. You don't create safe systems by following the boom and bust hype cycles that CS is so famous for. You don't just wildly race to build a nuclear reactor and try to sell it to people while it is still a prototype.

[0] https://fastdatascience.com/ai-in-healthcare/ai-replace-radi...

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1dhlvzh/geoffr...

[2] https://youtu.be/Yf1o0TQzry8?t=449

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV41QEKiMlM

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44068943

[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44070101

[6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44017334

[7] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43909711

[8] This is the link to [1,2]. I mean you can reasonably create a data generating process that is difficult or impossible to distinguish from the actual data generating process but you have a completely different causal structure, confounding variables, and all that fun stuff. Any physicist will tell you that fitting the data is the easy part (it isn't easy). Interpreting and explaining the data is the hard part. That hard part is the building of the causal relationships. It is the "understanding" Hinton and Sutskever claim.

Re: The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?

#240
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yud is also something like 50% sure we'll die in a few years - if I'm not wrong I guess they'll have to update their a priori % if we survive

I think Yudkowsky is more like 90% sure of us all dying in a few ( I mean, this is their new book: https://ifanyonebuildsit.com/

There are a lot of people that believe most of us will die within the next 10 years, and a rational discussion of these subjects is largely based in the fact that for the last three generations, we have faced numerous existential threats that instead of solving them, have instead all had the can kicked down the road.

Eventually what inevitably happens is you get convergence in time where you simply do not have the resources, and with the risk factors today, that convergence my cause societal failure.

Super Intelligent AI alone, yeah that probably is not a threat because its so highly (astronomically) unlikely, but socio-economic collapse to starvation; now that's a very real possibility when you create something that destroys the ability for an individual to form capital, or breaks other underlying aspects which underpin all of societal organization going back hundreds of years.

Now these things won't happen overnight, but that's not the danger either. The danger is the hysteresis, or in other words by the time you find out and can objectively show its happening to react, its impossible to change the outcome. Your goose is just cooked as a species, and the cycle of doom just circles until no ones left.

Few realize that food today is wholly dependent on Haber-Bosch chemistry. You get 4x less yield without it, and following Catton in a post-extraction phase sustainable population numbers may be fractional compared to last century (when the population was 4bn). People break quite easily under certain circumstances and so any leaders following MAD doctrine will likely actually use it when they realize everything is failing and what's ahead.

These are just things that naturally happen when the mechanics of things that are long forgotten which underpin the way things work fail to ruin. The loss of objective reality is a warning sign of such things on the horizon.

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