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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#231

Post by Viliam1234 »

hilbert42 wrote: post #151

I'm damed sure I'd be much worse at math if I'd not been pushed in a formal environment such as a school classroom. I liked math—especially calculus as it made sense to me—but parts became a drudgery when I could see no reason for studying them. Right, there's always the kid in class who excels at math like a mini Euler and gets bored because the rest can't keep up but the majority of us aren't like that—doing Bessel…

> (Perhaps maths and physics texts should be written in tandem and synced to show relevance.)

I agree with most of what you wrote, but this part is tricky. Yes, it would be nice to have math and physics textbooks synced. Maybe other subjects, too.

But writing a textbook is a lot of work; it can take years. How do we get two textbooks synced, if they are written by different people? One writes their book first, then the other has to match it? What if the other disagrees with how the first book was organized? They both write together? Now there is a risk that one does a good job, another does a bad job, and the good textbook is connected to the bad one.

Or maybe write the common outline first, and then each author is trying to follow it independently? Plus, there could be multiple versions of each book, following the same outline, so each math textbook can be connected with each physics textbook based on the same outline. Here the problem is that people often disagree on the outline.

Also, not sure how important is this part, having things in sync could slow down the improvement in the future. For example, imagine that we figure out a better way to teach something in physics. But now everyone is used to having math and physics textbooks synced, so the new physics books would be rejected, until someone rewrites the math books too.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#232

Post by ctxc »

danenania wrote: post #223
cpursley wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I commented in another post, piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar (and appreciating that genre of music). Very few guitar players can even recognize note names on a staff. You’re not going to get far with classical guitar without it.

Unless you plan to be a professional musician, why does it matter if you “get far”? Isn’t it supposed to be for fun?

You need to "get far" enough for it to be fun.

You want to have fun playing along to your favourite song. Or impromptu jam with a friend. Or sing for yourself because a song reminds you of a memory.

They all have a minimum skill requirement, without which it isn't as enjoyable. You need to know to play reasonably well by ear to have fun imo.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#233

Post by kif »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

I’m not a parent myself, but something I’ve seen happen with an American family I know, is that they push their kids way too much to learn and do as many things as possible. They have their music lessons, their many clubs at school, several physical activities such as soccer, tennis, taekwondo. At some point you have to stop and wonder whether you’re taking their childhood away.

These kids barely have any free time. School during weekdays, activities during the weekend… worse than a full time job.

I think there’s a balance to be struck. Your kids don’t need to be good at everything.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#234

Post by ctxc »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

"something they absolutely hate" is learning to read sheet music, training for skill, practicing for muscle memory.

The fruits are reaped when they (me!) get older. Like I mentioned in another comment, I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim.

Those are not things I necessarily wanted to do when I was a kid. But the "forced" practice was required as a foundation to do what I want to today.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#235

Post by ctxc »

tetris11 wrote: post #184
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

Yep, 6 years of being forced to play the violin. Sure, once I was playing it, I was fine, but I cannot explain to you the sheer dread I felt opening up the case. Have not played in decades, despite all those lessons and concerts and orchestra sessions.

I felt the same. I didn't touch it for ~9 years.

But I'm glad for it, since it lets me jam or enjoy myself without having to put the practice in now from scratch. I do it for fun.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#236

Post by annerxox »

hilbert42 wrote: post #164
hahamaster wrote: post #43

I tell my kid that math is a language. You learn to speak it, just like you learn to speak any other language, slowly, by listening, understanding, speaking, intuitively recognizing patterns, rules and exceptions. When you start to become fluent you translate problems into math and solve them. At school they keep trying to make them memorize useful phrases, like a tourist that goes to Paris and learns how to say "whe…

"At school they keep trying to make them memorize useful phrases, like a tourist that goes to Paris…." Like learning dozens of trig identities without any explanation about why one would need them. As I've mentioned elsewhere learning math for the sake of it isn't enough. For most of us math has to have relevance, and for that we have to link it to things in the real world.

We can't even figure out that there are bottom up vs top down learners.

Instead we will just continue to slog along with the same poor system. Math wise, completely at the expense of the top down learners.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#237

Post by gizmondo »

kleene_op wrote: post #152
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

That was exactly my sentiment. My parents pushed me hard to do piano when I was around 10-12. After a year that went pretty well I was starting to get lazy and put very little work and investment into preparing for the next lesson. They still had me play piano a full year until they eventually gave up and bitterly told me what a waste my resignation felt to them. 20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can…

> I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years.

Counter-example to anyone reading this and thinking about imposing this misery on their child - I absolutely hated piano lessons, and nowadays I absolutely hate that my parents forced me to do it. Total waste of time, even spending more time on Civilization or whatever instead would've been more valuable to me.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#238

Post by zerr »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

Why not anxiety instead of laziness?

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#239

Post by danenania »

ctxc wrote: post #232
danenania wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you plan to be a professional musician, why does it matter if you “get far”? Isn’t it supposed to be for fun?

You need to "get far" enough for it to be fun. You want to have fun playing along to your favourite song. Or impromptu jam with a friend. Or sing for yourself because a song reminds you of a memory. They all have a minimum skill requirement, without which it isn't as enjoyable. You need to know to play reasonably well by ear to have fun imo.

Sure, those are definitely fun things to be able to do, but it’s not some kind of essential life skill. If it’s not someone’s thing, why force it? There are plenty of other skills that are also fun to have.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#240

Post by alabastervlog »

danenania wrote: post #223
cpursley wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I commented in another post, piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar (and appreciating that genre of music). Very few guitar players can even recognize note names on a staff. You’re not going to get far with classical guitar without it.

Unless you plan to be a professional musician, why does it matter if you “get far”? Isn’t it supposed to be for fun?

That was ironic understatement. With classical guitar, you won’t really get anywhere without being able to read sheet music. It’s not like rock and pop guitar where you can just learn tabs and slightly develop your ear and that’s enough play along with all your favorite tunes.

If you’ve already picked up reading music for one instrument, it’s a ton easier for the next one.

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