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How University Students Use Claude

anthropic.com

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Re: How University Students Use Claude

#231
post #35

> A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used. I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem. Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous…

When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately. For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibl…

>When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today.

Au contraire! It is quite wrong and was wrong then too. "Rote memorisation" is a slur for knowledge. Knowledge is still important.

Knowledge is the basis for skill. You can't have skill or understanding without knowledge because knowledge is illustrative (it gives examples) and provides context. You can know abstract facts like "addition is abelian" but that is meaningless if you can't add. You can't actually program if you don't know the building blocks of code. You can't write a C program if you have to look up the function signature of read(2) and write(3) every time you need to use them.

You don't always have access to Google, and its results have declined procipitously in quality in recent years. Someone relying on Google as their knowledge base will be kicking themselves today, I would claim.

It is a bit like saying you don't need to learn how to do arithmetic because of calculators. It misses that learning how to do arithmetic isn't just important for the sake of being able to do it, but for the sake of building a comfort with numbers, building numerical intuition, building a feeling for maths. And it will always be faster to simply know that 6x7 is 42 than to have to look it up. You use those basic arithmetical tasks 100 times every time you rearrange an equation. You have to be able to do them immediately. It is analogous.

Note that I have used illustrative examples. These are useful. Knowledge is more than knowing abstract facts like "knowledge is more than knowing abstract facts". It is about knowing concrete things too, which highlight the boundaries of those abstract facts and illustrate their cores. There is a reason law students learn specific cases and their facts and not just collections of contextless abstract principles of law.

>For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibly (most writing is done on computers),

Writing legibly is important for many reasons. Note taking is important and often isn't and can't be done with a computer. It is also part of developing fine motor skills generally.

>spell very well (spell check keeps us professional),

Spell checking can't help with confusables like to/two/too, affect/effect, etc. and getting those wrong is much more embarrassing than writing "embarasing" or "parralel". Learning spelling is also crucial because spelling is an insight into etymology which is the basis of language.

>reading a map to get around (GPS), etc

Reliance on GPS means never building a proper spatial understanding. Many people that rely on GPS (or being driven around by others) never actually learn where anything is. They get lost as soon as they don't have a phone.

>but I think my children will have a different perspective (similar to how I feel about memorizing poetry and languages without garbage collection).

Memorising poetry is a different sort of thing--it is a value judgment not a matter of practicality--but it is valuable in itself. We have robbed generations of children of their heritage by not requiring them to learn their culture.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#232
post #95

> A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used. I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem. Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous…

IMO it's so easy to ChatGPT your homework that the whole education model needs to flip on its head. Some teachers already do something like this, it's called the "Flipped classroom" approach. Basically, a student's marks depend mostly (only?) on what they can do in a setting where AI is verifiably unavailable. It means less class time for instruction, but students have a tutor in their pocket anyway. I've also talked…

The education model at high school and undergrad uni has not changed in decades, I hope AI leads to a fundamental change. Homework being made easy by AI is a symptom of the real issues. Being taught by uni students who learned the curriculum last year, lecturers who only lecture due to obligation and haven't changed a slide in years. Lecturers who refuse to upload lecture recordings or slides. Just a few glaring issues, the sad part these are rather superficial easy to fix cases of poor teaching.

I feel AI has just revealed how poor the teaching is, though I don't expect any meaningful response to be made by teaching establishments. If anything AI will lead to bigger differences in student learning. Those who learn core concepts and to critically think will be become more valuable and the people who just AI everything will become near worthless.

Unis will release some handbook policy changes to the press and will continue to pump out the bell curve of students and get paid.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how do I answer my child when he asks "Why should I learn to do X if I can just ask an LLM and it will do it better than me" It's been my experience that LLMs are only better than me at stuff I'm bad at. It's noticeably worse than me at things I'm good at. So the answer to your question depends: can your child get good at things while leaning on an LLM? I don't know the answer to this. Maybe schools need to expe…

Given the rate of improvement wrt to llms, this may not hold true for long

The rate of improvement with LLMs seems to have halted since Claude3.5, which was about a year ago. I think we’ve probably gone as far as we can go with tweaks to transformer architectures, and we’ll need a new academic discovery which could take years to do better

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The irreducible answer to "why should I" is that it makes you ever-more-increasingly reliant on a teetering tower of fragile and interdependent supply chains furnished by for-profit companies who are all too eager to rake you over the coals to fulfill basic cognitive functions. Yes, but that horse has long ago left the barn. I don't know how to grow crops, build a house, tend livestock, make clothes, weld metal, bu…

>50 years from new the career of a "coder" will evoke the same historical quaintness as does "switchboard operator" or "wainwright." And what happens to those coders? For that matter--what happens to all the other jobs at risk of being replaced by AI? Where are all the high paying jobs these disenfranchised laborers will flock to when their previous careers are made obsolete? We live in a highly specialized society t…

It took me a long time to master the pen tool in Photoshop. I don't mean that I spent a weekend and learned how it worked. I meant that out of all the graphic designers at the agency I was working for, I was the designer who had the most flawless pen-tool skills and thus was the envy of many. It is now an obsolete skill. You can segment anything instantly and the results are pristine. Thanks to technology one no longer needs to learn how to make the most form-fitting curves with the pen tool to be labeled a great graphic designer.

It's remarkable that reading and writing, once the guarded domain of elites and religious scribes, are now everyday skills for millions. Where once a handful of monks preserved knowledge with their specialized scribing skills, today anyone can record history, share ideas, and access the thoughts of centuries with a few keystrokes.

The wheel moves on and people adapt. Who knows what the "right side" of history will be, but I doubt we get there by suppressing advancements and guaranteeing job placements simply because you took out large loans to earn a degree and a license.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#236
post #35

> A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used. I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem. Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous…

When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately. For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibl…

"Technology can do X more conveniently than people, so why should children practice X?" has been a point of controversy in education at least since pocket calculators became available.

I try to explain by shifting the focus from neurological to musculoskeletal development. It's easy to see that physical activity promotes development of children's bodies. So although machines can aid in many physical tasks, nobody is suggesting we introduce robots to augment PE classes. People need to recognize that complex tasks also induce brain development. This is hard to demonstrate but has been measured in extensive tasks like learning languages and music performance. Of course, this argument is about child development, and much of the discussion here is around adult education, which has some different considerations.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I think the struggle is essential. If you can just ask a tutor (real or electronic) what is wrong with your code, you stop thinking and become dependent on that. Learning to think your way through a roadblock that seems like a showstopper is huge. It's sort of the mental analog of weight training. The only way to get better at weightlifting is to actually lift weight.

If I were to go and try to bench 300lbs, I would absolutely need a spotter to rescue me. Taking on more weight than I can possibly achieve is a setup for failure. Sure, I should probably practice benching 150lbs. That would be a good challenge for me and I would benefit from that experience. But 300lbs would crush me.

Sadly, ChatGPT is like a spotter that takes over at the smallest hint of struggle. Yes, you are not going to get crushed, but you won't get any workout done either.

You really want start with a smaller weight, and increment it in steps as you progress. You know, like a class or something. And when you do those exercises, you really want to be lifting those weights yourself, and not rely on spotter for every rep.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#238
What stops a student or anyone from creating a mashup of response and give back as something to teacher to check. Example feed output of Ollama to Chatgpt and that output to Google model and so on and then give final product to teacher for checking.

I don't think that can be caught.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Does that actually work? Sure. Works in my IDE. "Create a linked list implementation, use that implementation in a method to reverse a linked list and write example code to demonstrate usage". Working code in a few seconds. I'm very glad I didn't have access to anything like that when I was doing my CS degree.

Yeah, and forget about giving skeleton code to students they should fill in; using an AI can quite frequently completely ace a typical undergraduate level assignment. I actually feel bad for people teaching programming courses, as the only real assessment one can now do is in-class testing without computers, but that is a strange way to test students’ ability to write and develop code to solve certain classes of prob…

Hopefully someone is thinking about adapting the assessments. Asking questions that focus on a big picture understanding instead of details on those in-class tests.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The irreducible answer to "why should I" is that it makes you ever-more-increasingly reliant on a teetering tower of fragile and interdependent supply chains furnished by for-profit companies who are all too eager to rake you over the coals to fulfill basic cognitive functions. Yes, but that horse has long ago left the barn. I don't know how to grow crops, build a house, tend livestock, make clothes, weld metal, bu…

This reply brings to mind the well-known Heinlein quote: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallan…

I haven't butchered a hog or died yet.
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