Live data from Hacker News

Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

washingtonstatestandard.com

231–240 of 355 posts

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#231

I've seen two apocalyptic North American scenarios in fiction, and have previously dismissed both as ridiculous. 1. In the Fallout universe, the USA annexes Canada 2. In at least two Neal Stephenson novels (Snowcrash and Termination Shock), the USA has collapsed. I've never before thought that either of these would have a semi-realistic path to actually happening.

Also Snow Crash, the US consisting of many large, corpo-owned city states (also being discussed in the current news with techbros trying to start up their own self-regulated cities).

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#232
post #4

That makes perfect sense. It puzzles me why supporters of the current US regime think Canada won’t resist the US. Be it a trade war or a military invasion, Canada will make the cost so great that it may eliminate the US from the world arena. Canada has been cornered and has nothing to lose at this point.

>[Canada] may eliminate the US from the world arena Is this a joke?

For any armed force, even a 2-3 million strong one, fighting a war against an entire population of 40 million goes one of two ways:

- unimaginable atrocities that would make Hitler blush, and then they might still lose

- Vietnam x 100

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. * The US is able to get very cheap loans, which enables the US to throw around money when necessary to do things that are important (emergency projects, economic stabilization, etc). * The US has an extraordinary power to influence global politics due to their ability to control trade and banking systems. * The US dollar is stable in part because of its status as a trade currency. And a stable currency is extrem…

But that sounds bad! Why should we be borrowing all this money from foreigners when we’re a rich country? What if I want the U.S. to build stuff, instead of moving money around and trying to “influence global politics.” I’d also love a sane domestic politics that acknowledges that borrowing money from foreigners every year because we can’t square our spending with our taxing is a bad thing.

Indeed, there are disadvantages to being the world's reserve currency. This is known as the Tiffin Dilemma and was articulated in 60's:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

Basically this is why times have been great for industries like finance and tech in the US, but sucked for manufacturing. In turn leading to wealth inequality and, dare we say the class struggle that seem to have reached a boiling point.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culturally "left" wing and especially socially liberal policies are incredibly popular in Canada, enough so that there's enough of a block of an electorate that holds those opinions that two whole political parties can exist along the continuum and still one manages to hold majority power. And our Conservatives have suffered electorally drastically when they've strayed too far into culture wars and socially conservat…

> Culturally "left" wing and especially socially liberal policies are incredibly popular in Canada I can see that being true for certain policies and topics. But what about at a more basic level? What do you think of Canada’s shift towards restricting or punishing speech on controversial topics, and giving agencies that regulatory power? Or the tactic of using the financial system to punish protesters? Or significant…

Frankly it feels to me like you and I aren't going to have many reference points in common. We're unlikely to share ideological / philosophical presuppositions and I gave up arguing with right-libertarians years ago. Ok but here comes my rant.

FWIW, I'm not in my mind a "progressive", I don't believe in progress. I'm not a "liberal" of any kind. I'm a socialist. And so I don't speak for liberals or what they might do.

And so re: guns I'm personally not in favour of firearms regulation the way the liberals have gone about it. I also grew up and live rural. So my perspective, again, isn't urban-liberal-gun-control.

Also the left-wing social democratic party here, the NDP, historically always had a much more moderate gun control policy than the Liberals, and I've supported that. Though this has shifted in the last decade.

But I also see the gun debate in the US as preposterous. Frankly the 2nd amendment as interpreted by the right in the US looks like idiocy to me and likely has its origins in the need/desire to suppress slave revolts, and reflects the US's explicitly slave-holding racist history.

In any case, you also sound like you're repeating things as facts you've found in right-libertarian forums. You're declaring things as trends or policies or tendencies which are at best situational related to things that happened during COVID. Or you have a thing about the way people talk about trans stuff, I dunno. And you're presenting this stuff from a certain rights-fundamentalist POV which I wouldn't agree with.

For one, I haven't seen any shift in Canada on "punishing speech" on "controversial" topics. I am aware that people like Jordan Peterson have spread misinformation on this topic, claiming persecution when there usually isn't any. It's also not worth my time to get down into the weeds with people like that to try to disprove every single of their claims.

But western democracies outside of the US have tended to interpret the concept of freedom of speech in a different manner than the US, and I think it's naive to expect a country with a British parliamentarian tradition to frame things like the US has.

"Freedom-oriented" is pretty coded, frankly. I don't recognize libertarians as "freedom oriented" -- I see them as market fundamentalists who will take the hard boot of corporate authority as legitimate while gutting shared governance. And they're also ridiculously naive -- I don't see a hard line between state and private ... they're one in the same authoritarian structure and the capitalist "free" market creates the repressive state to support itself, so imagining one without the other is incoherent and irrational. It's not "freedom oriented" at all.

We live in a commonwealth. In a shared society. And in that society if people park on my street for three weeks hitting their horn day and night, threatening people with assault, blocking ambulances and firetrucks... I want governance to intervene to fix this.

What do you expect to happen?

If people arrive in your capital city trying to overthrow a democratically elected government? That being their stated aim, and they refuse to leave til said government is "gone"... And then you see that they are receiving funding from foreign governments, corporations, and extremist organizations. You're still going to call them protesters? You still think freezing accounts is an unreasonable move? Did you object to the freezing of accounts of ISIS sympathisers and the like during the "war on terror"?

Nevermind that these people, what they experienced, is a fraction of the repression that left wing protesters got after a single evening of protest during the G20 in Toronto years ago. Because in Ottawa, the "convoy" protesters -- led by far right radicals -- had the sympathy of the police.

Look, as someone who comes from the radical left I can tell you now... the US government is far more draconian in suppression of protest and dissent than the Canadian state ever has been. It has a history of repression far more drastic going back since before the cold war.

It's just that so-called "freedom oriented" people aren't used to feeling the blunt edge of that. Because their politics fundamentally conforms to the authoritarian structure of actually-existing capitalism.

I will end this by pointing out that it's a cliche about Canada, for 150 years, that our motto is "Peace, Order, and Good Government" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace%2C_order%2C_and_good_gov...). Which differs starkly from how US has framed rights, historically around e.g. "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", etc. This is just the commonwealth tradition.

There's nothing new about this outlook, which conservatives and liberals in Canada shared for decades. In fact, it has historically been Liberals who chipped away at the stricter and more uptight interpretations of this motto. So, no I don't actually see a degradation in the rights structure of Canadian democracy. Just more of the same.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#235

Alaska is USA

You may not be aware, but Alaska is not part of the blob of 48 contiguous states. If you want to get from the main body of the US to Alaska over land, you'll have to cross Canadian territory.

And Alaska is still in the USA, so my critique of the title stands. If it had said 48 contiguous states it would have been accurate.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#236
post #4

That makes perfect sense. It puzzles me why supporters of the current US regime think Canada won’t resist the US. Be it a trade war or a military invasion, Canada will make the cost so great that it may eliminate the US from the world arena. Canada has been cornered and has nothing to lose at this point.

There is this bad penny bit of propaganda that a lot of people believe. Which is only the US has any agency. And everyone else does what they do either under orders from the US or as a reaction to something the US did. It's attractive if you're ignorant and stupid because it makes the world simple enough for you to think you understand everything.

Putin, the current administration and conservatives in general swallowed that hook line and sinker.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#237

This dynamic isn’t really good. I understand Canada didn’t start it, but I really don’t like these dynamics.

How do you think Canada should react to a neighboring country that not only unilaterally declared a trade war but also continues to threaten to annex them? Appeasing bullies does. not. work.

> How do you think Canada should react?

As a friendly porcupine.

> Appeasing bullies does. not. work.

This isn't a schoolyard bully situation. This is something like an Odysseus vs. Polyphemus situation.

It calls for wit and guile, not open aggression and escalation.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#238
post #7

I’m surprised all the countries the US is trying to bully aren’t considering moving to the Euro as the reserve currency (even China might go along with this). It would be so damaging for the US they might actually understand they have been benefiting from a win-win situation since the end of the Second World War.

Why does a reserve currency even need to exist? Bretton Woods was a result of the extraordinary circumstances of WW2. The move to the petrodollar was a good deal at the time letting the US play world police. Now it's clear that the US isn't a reliable security partner even if other countries wanted it. The oil producing nations would surely be happy to start selling in other currencies.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually share general skepticism about the US-Canada border and the structure of the Canadian state generally. But I also have deep skepticism of the US project generally. I think northeastern US states have more in common with us than their own southern states. I think the Canadian political class -- both conservative and liberal -- are really parasitical awful people overall, and our own business community are o…

>And that there is an "alternate path" for governance in North America is in fact I think the precise thing that actually enrages people like Trump. Haven't heard anyone quite put it like this - thanks. Trump is also such an egomaniac that he wants territorial expansion of the US to be part of his legacy. He admires conquerors and invaders.

I see it as something similar to some of the motives driving Putin with Ukraine. All the rhetoric about "NATO at our doorstep" is just a smokescreen for what the real fear is -- he cannot countenance an alternative Russian/Ukrainian speaking polity, culturally-partially-contiguous with Russia to exist on his doorstep if it is a liberal democracy, outside of his sphere of (corrupt) control, and not subject to his kleptocracy. Because it would be an internal threat. The cost of grinding Ukraine into the ground is worth it to him if it means maintaining strict control at home.

What Trump is doing is like a kid's colouring book version of the same thing. It's crude jingoism to shore up his own base with bullshit about Canada and whatever, to build legitimacy based on jingoistic nationalism, and to try to undermine and destroy a liberal / centrist gov't on his doorstep. And, consistent with his "drill baby drill" mantra, it's also an attempt to stop climate change initiatives, to free US capital in Alberta from Canadian regulation, and to maintain/extend American control over our resource sector.

Re: Canada considering charging for road access from USA to Alaska

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such an echo chamber among the Albertan far right that they fail to see exactly what a fringe community they are. Unfortunately they have deep pockets because of funding from the US.

not from alberta.

Well, I am (originally). And I recognize the verbiage from there even when it's spoken elsewhere.
Post reply on HN