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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#231

Post by perching_aix »

pessimizer wrote: post #215

[flagged]

Have you considered running for office? You managed to lie or mislead in every single sentence you uttered, you'd definitely qualify.

> This is not real news.

You're not the sole arbiter of what's real and not real news. Misleading on the account of asserting so.

> I've heard of a military-grade capacitor, I've never heard of a "military-grade weapon."

Thanks for the fun fact? Why would it ever matter what you heard of or didn't hear of? Oh, 'cause it's supposed to be misleading! In that what you heard of exists, and what you didn't hear of doesn't exist. In the same fashion the news isn't real, now the (supposed) taxonomic rank of the weapon isn't real either. Got it. But then, you're not the sole arbiter of this either. Misleading on the account of asserting so, once more.

> Sounds like random words

Not to me. Wow, now we're tied. Misleading on the account of treating this opinion as fact later on (see below).

> to make less-lethal crowd control equipment sound like a massacre

Because if you think it now sounds like massacre, then it does, right? Misleading on the account of asserting an opinion as fact. Also speculation, and at that, speculation of (malicious) intent.

> Kudos in getting the coup of the week on the front page of HN, though.

And it was not even a coup. This makes a lie, with a sprinkle of cynicism masquerading as intellectualism.

Why are people like this?

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#232

Post by rtkwe »

Abimelex wrote: post #177
rtkwe wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extensively covered on the wikipedia page alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_acoustic_device#Uni... Also if you just google "LRAD use in [country]" there are source for any country you're actually wondering about...

that's not necessarely the weapon LRAD, Long Range Acoustic Devices may also be used for communication. I would be really alerted if this kind of weapon would be used in Germany. > In the first half of 2020, Bad Homburg's fire brigade and city police used an LRAD 100X system more than 60 times to deliver COVID-19 information. LRAD 100X: https://danimex.com/products?ProductID=PROD1666

The page also lists offensive/anti-protest usages in New Zealand & USA plus a number of other places as well. For Australia the usage is somewhat ambiguous but even used just as an "announcement" it can be turned up strong enough to be painful.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#233

Post by fc417fc802 »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #195
gruez wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Tear gas and more lethal gasses were extensively used in WWI. Afterwards the various belligerents came to an agreement on which weapons were acceptable, and they specifically decided to include tear gas in that ban. There were various reasons they did this (fear of escalation to lethal gasses was the biggest concern) but one specific reason was the indiscriminate nature of the gas as well as the fact that it can caus…

I largely agree with what you wrote.

> Rationalists like to ...

But then you tacked this on to the end and it's entirely unnecessary. The linked article is actually a very good one about recognizing bad faith use of labels.

It just doesn't really apply in this case because the original point (at least by my reading) wasn't a gotcha relying on the definition of a label but rather was using a label that the author believes is legitimate to point out the seeming inconsistency.

Of course whether or not the label is legitimate is itself perfectly reasonable to discuss.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#234

Post by beepbooptheory »

gruez wrote: post #207
beepbooptheory wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you have misunderstood this (extremely dumb) article. The idea and significance of the proper noun 'The Geneva Convention' is a much different class than just a noun like 'criminal' or 'murder'. The point of invoking it is not to hide behind an abstraction, but in fact to appeal to something specific. Unless you just read that article as "how to be uncharitable," your point does not make any sense.

>The idea and significance of the proper noun 'The Geneva Convention' is a much different class than just a noun like 'criminal' or 'murder'. The point of invoking it is not to hide behind an abstraction, but in fact to appeal to something specific. What is it appealing to then? When you say "violates the Geneva convention", I'm thinking of things like genocide, killing of civilians, and soldiers in trenches choking…

Insofar as you want to continue to charge this fallacy here, it doesn't really matter because "the Geneva Convention" is not, per the cited article, a "category whose archetypal member gives us a certain emotional reaction." It is something specific that happened/exists, and in that it has no "archetypal member." Whether you specifically have an emotional reaction to it is beyond the point, and in fact beyond gp's point. If you take the argument minimally charitably its just pointing out an inconsistency between what was at once point judged to be bad by an international community, and the actions of one member of that community today.

But further, do you really, in good faith, think gp was trying to form some airtight logical argument against the use of tear gas? Do you think its possible they were maybe just pointing something interesting out? What actual motive could you have to try and create this very thin gotcha here? Can you maybe step back and see how sealioning like this just adds noise?

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#235

Post by tonyhart7 »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #193
tonyhart7 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so you saying if there are violence or sabotage, you let these people do it??? how can that be better

They're suggesting that the point of an authority using this weapon on a mass of people may be to cause those people to become violent so that the authority can use the subsequent fear to justify further abuses. Which I think is likely, but also a bad decision. Generally speaking, the job of a legitimate government is to make violent protest unnecessary. So depending on the situation, the best action may indeed be to…

Yeah but the problem is with mass movement people like this, there are good chance people that can take advantage of these protest (looting,rob etc)

the point of these weapon is not "defeat" but mostly to crowd control right because you cant rule out if there is no crime even in peaceful protest, both things can be true at the same time

also if such weapon is not permanently injure or harm people, I can see why this weapon is in need like pepper spray

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#236

Post by fc417fc802 »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #197
gruez wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I believe you have misunderstood this (extremely dumb) article. The idea and significance of the proper noun 'The Geneva Convention' is a much different class than just a noun like 'criminal' or 'murder'. The point of invoking it is not to hide behind an abstraction, but in fact to appeal to something specific. Unless you just read that article as "how to be uncharitable," your point does not make any sense.

> this (extremely dumb) article

What's dumb about it? People often use labels in bad faith. I'd think that learning to recognize that is a good thing.

Of course the larger issue is that you are unlikely to be able to have a constructive dialogue with someone who is engaging in such tactics. Pointing out that someone is behaving poorly rarely solves the issue. I think it's still useful to be able to recognize the pattern though.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#237

Post by rtkwe »

CAP_NET_ADMIN wrote: post #173
rtkwe wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extensively covered on the wikipedia page alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_acoustic_device#Uni... Also if you just google "LRAD use in [country]" there are source for any country you're actually wondering about...

If you actually read the page that you've linked, you'll see that many European countries were just using it to deliver COVID notifications

Along with offensive uses in Greece, Japan, the US, and New Zealand along with some uses on sea going vessels against pirates. It's not just notification uses and even just as a notification messages there are reports of hearing damage when turned too high.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#238

Post by defrost »

mmooss wrote: post #107
tptacek wrote: post #19

LRADs have been used against protesters in Australia, New Zealand, the United States, France, and Germany.

Very important to know, though could you share a source where we can read about it?

  The LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) was used for the first time in the USA in Pittsburgh during the time of G20 summit on September 24-25th, 2009
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM

  The city of Pittsburgh has agreed to pay more than $200,000 to settle two cases stemming from the actions of the city during the September 2009 G-20 Summit, including $72,000 to Karen Piper, a bystander who suffered permanent hearing loss after Pittsburgh police deployed a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) on a neighborhood street.
* https://www.aclupa.org/en/press-releases/city-pittsburgh-set...

What’s an LRAD? Explaining the ‘sonic weapons’ police use for crowd control and communication (2022) - https://theconversation.com/whats-an-lrad-explaining-the-son...

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#239

Post by blacksmith_tb »

Jach wrote: post #134
neilv wrote: post #16

I wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.

Probably enjoyed working on cool sci-fi shit. Invisible weapons are pretty cool -- though I think conceptually the heat ray class ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System?useskin=v... ) is cooler than the LRAD class. How they're used or should be used? An unimportant question in the face of coolness. Then there's just basic pride in good engineering or craftsmanship that can help spark joy in whatever one…

"However, it is my judgment in these things that when you see something that is technically sweet, you go ahead and do it and you argue about what to do about it only after you have had your technical success. That is the way it was with the atomic bomb."[1]

1: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#240

Post by codedokode »

echoangle wrote: post #227

From the videos and the description, it looks like it basically makes you think there’s a vehicle approaching and everyone runs away to not get run over. But would this actually work repeatedly or could you actively override the panic effect if you become aware that it’s just an illusion?

As I understand, you can override the panic, but lose your hearing.
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