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Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

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Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#231

Post by iamthemonster »

pjscott wrote: post #136
neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

I work for an oil and gas company. It has been specifically stated by my company that they are seeking support for hydrogen as a fuel because it adds value to their gas reserves - natural gas is roughly 75% hydrogen on a molar basis.

The idea is to stimulate demand for "green-ish" hydrogen (that is by grid-connected electrolysis); once demand for the hydrogen is there, it can be supplied by blue hydrogen. The O&G companies aren't super keen on green hydrogen made by dedicated renewables off grid, and they LOVE the approach of "we'll start off with grey hydrogen then we'll move to blue and green in the future".

This is very specifically a strategy to increase the amount of natural gas that can move from resources to possible reserves to probable reserve to proven reserves. That's how you increase the value of your company, which is how you get a fat bonus as a CEO.

You don't get a fat bonus by telling the truth or being right.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#232

Post by timschmidt »

ch4s3 wrote: post #213
retetr wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the EV1, a popular, mass produced electric vehicle that was controversialy "discontinued" in 1999 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1?wprov=sfla1

A sun-compact with a 58 mile range that was only available for lease in 3 states is not exactly what I’d call viable, and I doubt it was popular.

It was a car engineered to satisfy California's short lived requirement for auto manufacturers to make a zero emissions vehicle, hence the availability. Despite that, drivers loved it, and didn't want to give them back when GM cancelled the program (after lobbying the law repealed).

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#233

Post by from-nibly »

Because governments are not buying hydrogen busses. They are buying votes and terms.

Just like public companies don't sell stuff they sell shares.

Just like private equity doesn't buy companies they buy loans they can disappear by defaulting a company.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#234

Post by newuser94303 »

andrepd wrote: post #207
whalesalad wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oil companies, vehicle manufacturers, tire companies and other powerful lobbyists have been doing this for decades so it’s an unsurprising theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... It’s why we don’t have rail in the US like you see in Europe. At one point in time we had a ton of rail and streetcar networks but these groups destroyed it all because it was a threat to their business. For o…

Plenty of this in Europe. In my country there's less km of rail now than there was in 1910.

which country?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#235

Post by semi-extrinsic »

bawolff wrote: post #227
askvictor wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just to delay, but they're hope is that they'll be able to control it when it happens. Oil companies move fluids, using pipes and tankers. Hydrogen is a fluid. They want to keep doing what they've been doing. Electricity doesn't fit into their M.O.

I don't think its really viable to transport hydrogen via existing (oil) pipelines. Hydrogen leaks everywhere.

Oil pipelines, no. Gas pipelines, yes. The effort to requalify existing gas pipelines for hydrogen use is well underway in Europe. There might be a need to run at lower pressure, depending on the type of steel, but leaks are not an issue.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#236

Post by fifilura »

I am surprised there is no mention of CNG/biogas buses.

They are very common here in Sweden.

The engine is more or less the same as a gasoline/diesel engine.

The biogas can be (and is) locally produced by food/farming waste or similar but can also run on fossile gas.

And for the buses it is no problem to carry the somewhat bulky cylinders on the roof.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#237

Post by adrianN »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #79
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stop-start nature of city busses makes them a real low hanging fruit for battery electrification, benefiting from instant torque to start and regen to stop and, as you say, fixed known routes within larger fleets. The only nation that seems to have capitalised on this basic fact is China which bootstrapped its EV industry on busses, pulling ahead from 2010 and hitting 90% of global market share for EV busses in 2…

For the same reason the electric mail trucks are a good idea. You can probably expect UPS and FedEx to start replacing their fleets over time as the existing vehicles age out, now that all electric vans are starting to become available.

DHL is already using many electric vans.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#238

Post by adrianN »

giantrobot wrote: post #200
kaibee wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the same lie as EVs claiming to be "green" in places where fossil fuel sources dominate electricity production. This is just anti-ev propaganda. First, its kind of a chicken-egg situation: 'its not worth going green for the power grid, all the cars are still ICE' 'oh its not worth building EV cars, the power grid is dirty anyway'. Second, there are lifecycle analyses that show that even if your powergrid is en…

> This is just anti-ev propaganda. It's not. I'm not in any was opposed to EVs. Assuming so is a bit ridiculous on your part. There's a marketing push to cast EVs as green no matter the prevailing sources of utility power. EVs can be green (like hydrogen) if they're charged from renewables. They also get greener over time since they're as green as their charging source. In the short term EVs are just moving their emi…

I was under the impression that for typical energy mixes in developed nations EVs are strictly better than ICEs and that you have to exclusively charge them for burning lignite to be slightly worse. Only counting climate change impact of course. I think there is a lot of value in reducing local emissions in cities too.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#239

Post by thaumasiotes »

iamthemonster wrote: post #231
pjscott wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

I work for an oil and gas company. It has been specifically stated by my company that they are seeking support for hydrogen as a fuel because it adds value to their gas reserves - natural gas is roughly 75% hydrogen on a molar basis. The idea is to stimulate demand for "green-ish" hydrogen (that is by grid-connected electrolysis); once demand for the hydrogen is there, it can be supplied by blue hydrogen. The O&G com…

> natural gas is roughly 75% hydrogen on a molar basis

I thought it was methane. Wouldn't that be 80% hydrogen on a molar basis? (Or... 67%, if we're counting moles of molecular hydrogen?) Is the discrepancy coming from impurities, or different types of fuel, or what?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#240

Post by Guthur »

Retric wrote: post #221
Guthur wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity is a by product of some source of energy, it doesn't just materialise unless your taking about capturing lightening in a bottle.

Hydrogen is also a byproduct of some source of energy, it doesn’t just materialize. The difference is batteries are vastly more efficient at storage and doing useful work with that stored energy. There’s use cases where that’s fine like rocketry, but efficiency or energy density is usually a dealbreaker.

What the hell are you talking about, a. batteries weren't mentioned and b. hydrogen is on the periodic table and exists as an element, and can actually be found in its pure form.
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