Earlier quoted context omitted.
> and wonder how an intelligent person can still think this, can be so absolute about it. What is "actual" reasoning here? Large language models excel at processing and generating text, but they fundamentally operate on existing knowledge. Their creativity appears limited to recombining known information in novel ways, rather than generating truly original insights. True reasoning capability would involve the ability…
> True reasoning capability would involve the ability to analyze complex situations and generate entirely new solutions, independent of existing patterns or combinations. You mean like alphago did in its 36th move?
Life is more than an engineering problem
231–240 of 257 posts
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Their creativity appears limited to recombining known information" There are some theories that this is true for humans also. There are no human created images that weren't observed first in nature in some way. For example, Devils/Demons/Angels were described in terms of human body parts, or 'goats' with horns. Once we got microscopes and started drawing insects then art got a lot weirder, but not before images were…
I understand your point, but it's not comparable: Humans can suddenly "jump" cognitive levels to see higher-order patterns. Gödel seeing that mathematics could describe mathematics itself. This isn't combining existing patterns, but seeing entirely new levels of abstraction. The human brain excels at taking complex systems and creating simpler mental models. Newton seeing planetary motion and falling apples as the sa…
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
Leading mathematician Terence Tao says yes, with a lot of guidance. https://mathstodon.xyz/@tao/113132503432772494
I don't see Tao claiming ChatGPT proved a theorem. Moreover most questions seemed to be about something already talked about online, so it seems plausible that it was included in the training data. This is IMO a big issue with evaluating LLMs, you can't keep asking the same questions because you can't be sure they will eventually answer by memory or actually reason.
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, analogies and embeddings are not exactly the same. Analogies in language are not a math function. As Ted Chiang comments on the article, this kind of reasoning ("the brain is like $CURRENT_TECH") is flawed.
well, embedding comes with certain loss as well. If you believe our brains use "language" to think, then I would assume analogies play an important part in reasoning.
I'm just saying embeddings and analogies aren't the same; equating them is precisely the kind of flawed reasoning Ted Chiang mentions in the article.
Or to answer more directly:
> analogy, in other words, embeddings?
No, analogies aren't embeddings "in other words".
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yea but following your example/analogy you have gas-gas but brain-llm. So how can we then experiment? It's a simulation at best.
Both jets and birds fly but do it in a completely different way. Who said that there's only one way to achieve reasoning?
> "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim." - Edsger Dijkstra
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#236> "It’s like imagining that a printer could actually feel pain because it can print bumper stickers with the words ‘Baby don’t hurt me’ on them. It doesn’t matter if the next version of the printer can print out those stickers faster, or if it can format the text in bold red capital letters instead of small black ones. Those are indicators that you have a more capable printer but not indicators that it is any closer…
These discussions seem to me to still get hung up on the classical sci-fi view of an AI, even talking about Companion here, of some single identifiable discrete entity that can even potentially be the locus of things like rights and feelings. What is ChatGPT? Ollama? DeepSeek-R1? They're software. Software is a file. It's a sequence of bytes that can be loaded into memory, with the code portion pulled into a processo…
It seems for a lot of people that's all that matters: "if it quacks like a duck it must be a duck!". I find that short-sighted at best, but it's always difficult to present arguments that would "resonate" with the other side...
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's more that if you actually work with LLMs they will display reasoning. It's not particularly good or deep reasoning (I would generally say they have a superhuman amount of knowledge but are really quite unintelligent), but it is more than simply recall.
Are they displaying reasoning, or the outcome of reasoning, leading you to a false conclusion? Personally, I see ChatGPT say "water doesn't freeze at 27 degrees F" and think "how can it possibly do advanced reasoning when it can't do basic reasoning?"
(Basically, I don't think there's a bright line here: saying "they can't reason" isn't very useful, instead it's more useful to talk about what kinds of things they can reason about, and how reliably. Because it's kind of amazing that this is an emergent behaviour of training on text prediction, but on the other hand because prediction is the objective function of the training, it's a very fuzzy kind of reasoning and it's not obvious how to make it more rigourous or deeper in practice)
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
>and wonder how an intelligent person can still think this, can be so absolute about it. I wonder how people write things like this and don't realize they sound as sanctimonious as exactly whatever they are criticizing. Or, if I was to put it in your words: "how could someone intelligent post like this?"
You're right, it was kind of rude. Apologies. I really would rather be wrong, for a reason I gave in another comment. The thing is, you can interact with this new kind of actor as much as you need to to judge this -- make up new problems, ask your own questions. "LLMs can't think" has needed ever-escalating standards for "real" thinking over the last few years. Gary Marcus made a real-money bet about this.
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yea but following your example/analogy you have gas-gas but brain-llm. So how can we then experiment? It's a simulation at best.
Both jets and birds fly but do it in a completely different way. Who said that there's only one way to achieve reasoning?
Re: Life is more than an engineering problem
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's really up to the highly nebulous definition. Even in your comment is implied that reasoning and consciousness are two names of the same thing but i'd argue one is here and one will never be provable ever. Reason is working through logical steps, much like a program. It's a set of conditions that get checked and a logical structure that uses that information to reach a conclusion. That's what sets it apar…
I agree that reasoning and consciousness are different, however what I do not see being discussed by the AI research community is the necessity to define and then develop "artificial comprehension". At this point in time, the act of comprehension is a scientific mystery. I'd say 'consciousness' is the ongoing ever present comprehension of the moment, a feedback self conversation assessing the current situation a bein…