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The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

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Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> George Hotz is making better drivers for AMD lol

*George Hotz is making posts online talking about how AMD isn’t helping him

George Hotz tried to extort AMD into giving him $500k in free hardware and $2m cash, and they politely declined.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#232
I think the biggest threat for future NVIDIa right now is their own current success.

Their software platforms and CUDA are a very strong moat against everyone else. I don't see any beating them on that front right now.

The problem is that I'm afraid that all that money sloshing inside the company is rotting the culture and that will compromise future development.

  - Grifters are filling out positions in many orgs only trying to milk it as much as possible. 
  - Old employees become complacent with their nice RSU packages Rest & Vest.
NVIDIA used to be extremely nimble and was way fighting way above it's weight class. Prior to Mellanox acquisition only around 10k employees and after another 10k more.

If there's a real threat to their position at the top of the AI offerings will they be able to roll up the sleeves and get back to work or will the organizations be unable to move ahead.

Long term I think it's inevitable that China will take over the technology leadership. They have the population and they have the education programs and the skill to do this. At the same time in the old western democracies things are becoming stagnant and I even dare to say that the younger generations are declining. In my native country the educational system has collapsed, over 20% kids that finish elementary school cannot read or write. They can mouth-breath and scroll TikTok though but just barely since their attention span is about the same as gold fish.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#233

DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. When someone can replicate your model for 5% of the cost in 2 years, I can only see 2 rational decisions: 1) Start focusing on cost efficiency today to reduce the advantage of the second mover (i.e. trade growth for profitability) 2) Figure out how to build a real competitive moat through one or more of the foll…

This is wrong. First mover advantage is strong. This is why OpenAI is much bigger than Mixtral despite what you said.

First mover advantage acquired and keeps subscribers.

No one really cares if you matched GPT4o one year later. OpenAI has had a full year to optimize the model, build tools around the model, and used the model to generate better data for their next generation foundational model.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deepseek is unique, but the US has consistently underestimated Chinese R&D, which is not a winning strategy in iterated games.

There seem to be a 100 fold uptick in jingoists in the last 3-4 years which makes my head hurt but I think there is no consistent "underestimation" in academic circles? I think I have read articles about the up and coming Chinese STEM for like 20 years.

Yes, for people in academia the trend is clear, but it seems that WallStreet didn't believe this was possible. They assume that spending more money is all you need to dominate technology. Wrong! Technology is about human potential. If you have less money but bigger investment in people you'll win the technological race.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#236
post #207

Great article. > Now, you still want to train the best model you can by cleverly leveraging as much compute as you can and as many trillion tokens of high quality training data as possible, but that's just the beginning of the story in this new world; now, you could easily use incredibly huge amounts of compute just to do inference from these models at a very high level of confidence or when trying to solve extremely…

> If most of NVIDIAs moat is in being able to efficiently interconnect thousands of GPUs nah. it moat is CUDA and millions of devs using CUDA aka the ecosystem

But if it's not combined with super high end chips with massive margins that moat is not worth anywhere close to 3T USD.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#237
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh got it, thanks for the pointer. I am surprised there is enough correlation there to allow an entire GPU to be specialized. I'll have to dig in to the paper again.

It does. They have 256 experts per MLP layer, and some shared ones. The minimal deployment for decoding (aka. token generation) they recommend is 320 GPUs (H800). It is all in the DeepSeek v3 paper that everyone should read rather than speculating.

Got it. I’ll review the paper again for that portion. However, it still sounds like the end result is not VRAM savings but efficiently and speed improvements.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you watch this video, it explains well what the major difference is between DeepSeek and existing LLMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCqqCLlsIBU It seems like there is MUCH to gain by migrating to this approach - and it theoretically should not cost more to switch to that approach than vs the rewards to reap. I expect all the major players are already working full-steam to incorporate this into their stacks as…

> I don't think this seems particularly bad for ChatGPT. They've built a strong brand. This should just help them reduce - by far - one of their largest expenses. Often expenses like that are keeping your competitors away.

Yes, but it typically doesn't matter if someone can reach parity or even surpass you - they have to surpass you by a step function to take a significant number of your users.

This is a step function in terms of efficiency (which presumably will be incorporated into ChatGPT within months), but not in terms of end user experience. It's only slightly better there.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#239
This story could be applied to every tech breakthrough. We start where the breakthrough is moated by hardware, access to knowledge, and IP. Over time:

- Competition gets crucial features into cheaper hardware

- Work-arounds for most IP are discovered

- Knowledge finds a way out of the castle

This leads to a "Cambrian explosion" of new devices and software that usually gives rise to some game-changing new ways to use the new technology. I'm not sure where we all thought this somehow wouldn't apply to AI. We've seen the pattern with almost every new technology you can think of. It's just how it works. Only the time it takes for patents to expire changes this... so long as everyone respects the patent.

Re: The impact of competition and DeepSeek on Nvidia

#240

DeepSeek just further reinforces the idea that there is a first-move disadvantage in developing AI models. When someone can replicate your model for 5% of the cost in 2 years, I can only see 2 rational decisions: 1) Start focusing on cost efficiency today to reduce the advantage of the second mover (i.e. trade growth for profitability) 2) Figure out how to build a real competitive moat through one or more of the foll…

Your making some big assumptions projecting into the future. One that deepseek takes market position, two that the information they have released is honest regarding training usage, spend etc.

Theres a lot more still to unpack and I don’t expect this to stay solely in the tech realm. Seems to politically sensitive.

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