Live data from Hacker News

Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

vincentschmalbach.com

231–240 of 431 posts

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#231

I think the bigger issue is that most of the financial upsides of startups were illusory Unless you're a founder, you're unlikely to make any money, and predatory VC/backers using convertibles/senior debt to turn your equity into Zimbabwean dollars. Thats before any stats are calculated for lasting long enough to either IPO, make money or get bought out. As someone who did successfully exit, the stories of multiple-m…

I'm a little older than probably the average HN visitor, but I bet my experience matches a lot of peoples:

Mid 90's startup: Sold company, proceeds company covered debt, basically. I learned a ton on those 2.5 years, but had to have a part time job to make ends meet (and I was not living a lavish lifestyle).

Late 90's - Mid- 00's: Partner in consultancy that made generational wealth for at least one client, worked to burnout multiple times, never able to use the consultancy to develop a product with ARR. Made good profit share and salary the years prior to dotcom bust. Company was sold for basically the debt on the line of credit.

Mid-00's - Mid twenty-teens: Joined a "startup" that was really a consultancy. Spearheaded substantial growth, Shareholders just increased the dividend amount every time company grew year over year. Unable to negotiate an equity position that aligned incentives (me giving up my life and energy to further build the business) so I left. I was forced to surrender the equity in another startup when I quit the first one. The other start up is limping along, I think losing a (manageable) amount of money annually. I never valued this equity because the shareholder group was the same as the parent company, so this one had the same issues.

So I guess in a 25 year period I had something like 2-3 exits. I worked more than full time between 1998-2015.

I'm now a firm believer in that a successful exit takes knowing the right people and getting lucky.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#232

IMHO building startup became a status symbol which means that the payment in respect for making a courageous adventure is lost and commoditized. We are slowly seeing the same for academia. Point 2 resonates with me. Risk adjusted it is very unlikely that one will make a reasonable salary doing startups. So it is conviction and heart that needs to drive it. For me, the main issue is that every time I voice the idea ab…

> For me, the main issue is that every time I voice the idea about building something I get bombarded with premature growth and commercialization concerns instead of excitement about how to solve the problem. I think this is endemic - the entire sector is short sighted and profit obsessed. Do you think some of this is idea related? If you're building software, many new ideas are not truly innovative in a way that wou…

When I pitch my calorie counter app that uses AI - fair, that is not new.

But eg. working on an idea around decentralized dating app that utilizes federated learning, blockchains, en cryptographic distributed filesystems to make a truly open and algorithmically transparent dating app - and the response is: "But how are you ever going to make money off that" instead of starting to jam on good privacy preserving techniques in FL that still yields good results. ...

In honesty, I think the main issue is that the people have _not_ been able to understand these technologies. It has probably been _too_ innovative?

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're looking at working quietly, humbly, but perseverantly for the next 25 years > That never was sustainable, I think Another aspect with this being (un)sustainable is lack of affordable healthcare. I bet many people would take more risks if they didn't have to worry about this aspect of their lives.

The Swedes sure seem to think so. Per capita Swedish entrepreneurship is like 7x the rest of the euro zone, and they’re convinced that it’s that aspect of the social safety net that help prop up that high level of personal risk taking.

> Per capita Swedish entrepreneurship is like 7x the rest of the euro zone

That sounds worthy of deeper investigation, but healthcare is unlikely to be the factor?

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#234
I think more people are realizing that the stories of startup success in 2013 were heavy on survivorship bias, and that over the past decade people have become aware of just how predatory and unequal the VC model is.

New founders have less wool over their eyes, and increasingly run the numbers and say, "wait a second, that's the expected success rate? That's the pressure I'll have to grow grow grow? Those are the terms? Nah, I can work 40 somewhere, get paid more, and put in fewer hours."

We've stopped romanticizing killing oneself for the hustle too.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This resonates. Trying to get back into a tech job and they all need Kubernetes experience because microservices. I've spent 10 years developing MVPs that never scaled past 100 users, let alone anywhere large enough to need K8s.

It's a fifty/fifty, isn't it, part of it is actually exciting. Everytime I have a foot in a "proper" company (usually for a consulting gig), I'm always excited to learn about a bunch of stuff that I never had a moment to work with (because, as you say, it's usually a waste of time when there's less than a 100k users on it). The other part, however, is the insane slowdown of progress this usually brings with it. Every…

Bureaucracy is real. There are often ways of surmounting that, but that takes yet another, different set of skills.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

9 times out of 10 the company sells, performs a reduction in force, or goes under before they vest. 1 time out of 1000 the company is worth something and remains operable over a 5 year period. Rules of thumb for the green engineers: - Take salary/health insurance over stock in almost all cases. - At some companies employees who are greener and greedier will fight/sabotage all their peers to get rid of them, is this t…

What about if the valuation was super low when you received the options agreement? For instance, if I got $5,000 worth of options when the company was “worth” 1 million, is that a safe bet to buy into? Like surely the founder would be able to sell the company for 1 million dollars instead of crashing and burning… right?

> surely the founder would be able to sell the company for 1 million dollars instead of crashing and burning

That is absolutely not guaranteed at all! It's not even guaranteed that the next funding round will be on a better basis, or not dilute you.

The pre-IPO market for companies is illiquid and bad at price discovery.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#237

Enterpreneurship is much more than just running a startup. You can build a product by bootstrapping it and start selling. You don't need to go all in from the very beginning, but you can build and try selling that. If it ever sticks, then you can go all in. Also, you don't need to come up with something totally new that has never existed before. You can also build something that is already proven to have use for. Muc…

> to markets that exists instead of trying to create markets for something no-one has ever used before

Tried this quite a few times to know that competition is a good thing to have. The screen is a blank canvas, but the real world isn't.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#238
post #89
post #28

I'm not sure that there's a startup winter at all, it looks like a web browser tech winter to me. AFAIK YC also changed their focus and now are looking for physical things much more - like supersonic jets. There is only so much you can do with organizing information and entertainment through HTML and JS and make a profit of it. Maybe there will be a nice whiplash gold rush for making the web great again as this pile…

Yeah I agree. The market for companies that do something in a web browser may be saturated, but outside of that world it feels like there are more opportunities than ever. For example in the space of AI + robotics we’ve barely scratched the surface. I wonder if part of what’s happening may be a generational shift in how people in and around the startup world view work/life balance. In my limited experience, GenZ folk…

That makes sense, but are most of those newer opportunities more straight engineering and not software engineering?

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#239
DON'T DO IT should be the generic advice to anyone wanting to found/join a startup. You should only engage with startups if you have a good reason to. Just like you should only become a SoundCloud rapper if you fundamentally enjoy that life on a day-to-day basis, not because your goal is to throw champagne parties on yachts because you think all rappers get to do that as a payoff for the grind.

I’ve worked for 10 startups, 3 with successful exits, but only 1 of which made me a tangible financial boost; in true startup fashion this last success has more than paid for the rest. 2 of these startups were bootstrapped with cofounders that I later had a falling out with. This was a deeply horrible experience, at a time when I had no financial safety net. This made my self-esteem during key strategic decisions disorienting low. I had peers also founding startups during this time I was regularly in touch with, and they managed to be so much more level-headed than me, while I kept taking crazy risks or being too risk-averse. Years later, I realized most of the the "peer" cofounders I was comparing myself to had generational wealth. To them, founding a startup was more like a gap year. This was the roughest period of my life, and I actually have more spotty memory of this time than before or afterwards; literal brain damage.

I’ve ended up in startups so often because they enable you to tackle interesting problems holistically. I’m happier and more useful in this mode of work, rather than at an established company where you end up having to use existing, out-of-date models in team roles that are relatively silo'd. As an early startup employee, you can get an incredible amount of latitude you wouldn't otherwise. Founders should be leaning into this as part of the employment offer - you can't pay as much as a big company, but if your employee wants every Wednesday off because they do a weekly silent yoga retreat, you can say yes to that, while a big company wouldn't. The worst times I've had working for founders are when:

1. They treat the startup like their baby, and try to micromanage it like it's still only 2-3 people when the team has grown to a few dozen.

2. They think of the startup like it's their gap year, and don't actually care about product success. They want to continue with their original on-a-pedestal hypothesis for 2-3 years without attempting pivoting into potential traction. They run out of investor's money, and then get upper-level management jobs at large companies. I'm not offended at the waste of VC money, but rather the waste of human effort; we could have potentially found user value. If we aren't going to do aggressively pursue that, at least let me mess around with my own nonsense instead of insisting I stick to the product roadmap we all know isn't going to go anywhere useful.

Our primary model for creating new value is VC-backed startups, where the payoff is huge if you win, but unsustainable and demoralizing for anything else. This incentivizes startups and their investors to shoot for the moon and miss rather than seek lifestyle businesses which could have been a great contribution to the infrastructure of society. I wish the other R&D models got more attention: think tanks, government grant-based orgs, etc. I've done R&D work in academia, but I've found unfortunately that people are so ephemeral, so while most of the work is intelligent, it's quality is fragile and isn't reusable engineering. One exception would be some of the university-backed open data institutions https://www.birds.cornell.edu/home/us-state-level-conservati...

All that being said, I am currently bootstrapping a startup now! This time, I have a long personal runway, and I am quite happy. I am working with 1 part-time contractor, and at the stage where I'm discussing a raise with a few angels to hire a full-time team. However, if this raise doesn't work out, the path forward for the next ~2 years is the same, just more gradual.

Re: Startup Winter: Hacker News Lost Its Faith

#240

IMHO building startup became a status symbol which means that the payment in respect for making a courageous adventure is lost and commoditized. We are slowly seeing the same for academia. Point 2 resonates with me. Risk adjusted it is very unlikely that one will make a reasonable salary doing startups. So it is conviction and heart that needs to drive it. For me, the main issue is that every time I voice the idea ab…

> entire sector is short sighted and profit obsessed If you're in for-profit sector, I don't see why being concerned with the main goal first and foremost would be a bad thing. No one's doing business or lending money to not see a return on that. So if the problem is worth solving in this ecosystem it's worth it because it does actually turn a profit instead of some fantasy that it will magically appear at some imagi…

Well, it is a narrow understand.

I also don't focus solely on the fact that I earn money from my job, when I speak to my colleagues - no, I wouldn't be on that job, if it didn't pay.

> No one's doing business or lending money to not see a return on that.

This is a very specific understanding of startups as entities receiving foreign capital or debt.

The act of doing entrepreneurship or stating up is inherently devoid from profit motives - or should be IMHO. Money is what makes it possible and not the core reason to do it.

And by that we return to my core reservation as written out in the initial comment.

Post reply on HN