Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#231

Post by cryptonector » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 3:46 PM UTC

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #203

cryptonector wrote: post #109

Honeybee queens are the only honeybees with stingers that don't die when they sting. That's because the queen bee's stinger has no barbs, and the reason for that is that the queen must not die easily, and she must use her stinger, so if she's going to survive at all her stinger has to not have barbs. The queen almost certainly has to use her stinger when she exits her cocoon: to kill ther other queens that are about…

Nice, another beek! I have had a hive where I had queens that lived quite fine together. Weirdest hive as one of them was a caucasia and the other a cordovan . Never did get stung with those ladies. Mine was by accident, but I hear that some beeks do it since cannot get the genetic combination, they just do it as a mechanical combo, to get preferred traits. Like buckfast and russian to help with swarming and defensiv…

I've heard of queens co-existing, yeah, but that must be very rare. I wonder if somehow they either smell close enough to the same that they and the workers don't notice, or if they are sufficiently different that they don't recognize their smells as those of other queens.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#232

Post by the_af » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

fuzztester wrote: post #215

the_af wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mosquito bites are not painful at all to me. I've been stung by a bee only once, and it wasn't particularly painful (but not nothing, of course). As I mentioned above, I've been stung by swarms of wasps twice and it was very painful. I hear yellowjacket stings are extremely painful, but even though I've been near them I've never been stung... fortunately.

>Mosquito bites are not painful at all to me. interesting. I had a friend who was like that. once he invited me to a jazz concert near a river in the city where we both lived. river = mosquitoes. it was around 7 to 8 p.m. there was a shitload of mosquitoes around, and they were biting me and other people like mad, but he seemed completely unaffected. I asked him, aren't you being troubled by them? he said no. I had h…

Don't get me wrong, I hate mosquitoes and don't like being stung (both because of dengue fever risks in the case of aedes, and because it itches a lot afterwards), but I never find their bite painful. I suppose it depends on the kind of mosquito? I do know -- cause I've been bitten -- that horseflies hurt like hell, because their mouth parts have evolved to pierce cattle skin!

"Yellowjacket" is the translation I found for a kind of wasp we have in Argentina's Patagonia, where we call them "chaquetas" (Spanish for jackets). I think they might be imports and not native though, but now they are very frequent in our region.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#233

Post by the_af » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 3:59 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #219

the_af wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting! Don't wasps have a similar "swarm attack" mode that doesn't require individual wasps dying to spread pheromones? Something in the sting/venom itself? I've been stung by wasp swarms twice, in the same area (they were protecting their nest, and please don't ask why it happened twice... we humans do indeed stumble with the same stone twice!). The wasps were very aggressive stinging near the same locati…

Depends on the wasp/bee species. Not all of them swarm. Also, ants are related to wasps, and you will see similar behavior with them. I had a friend, when I was a kid, that shot a white-faced hornet nest (not actually hornets -they are big yellowjackets -even worse) with a BB gun, from, like, 50 meters away. The hornets figured out who shot their nest, and swarmed him. May have just been that they attacked any nearby…

Wow. Those hornets seem surprisingly clever.

I know Yellowjackets, we have them in Argentina. Their bite is said to be extremely painful but I haven't been bitten yet despite some pretty reckless behavior on my part.

One nice afternoon I was having a snack in a cafeteria, by the open window, and a bunch of yellowjackets started dipping in my drinks and my pie. Apparently they like raw meat (locals use it to drive them away from their own food) but I only had sweet stuff on my table. I got annoyed and killed a bunch of them with my bare hands, with no repercussions (killing dangerous insects with your fists or palms is surprisingly easy if you strike fast against a flat surface -- obviously I waited till they moved away from my stuff).

I was later told this was a terrible idea because their bite is very painful (see above: I'm not the smartest about bugs and have been bitten more than once due to recklessness!).

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#234

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #233

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the wasp/bee species. Not all of them swarm. Also, ants are related to wasps, and you will see similar behavior with them. I had a friend, when I was a kid, that shot a white-faced hornet nest (not actually hornets -they are big yellowjackets -even worse) with a BB gun, from, like, 50 meters away. The hornets figured out who shot their nest, and swarmed him. May have just been that they attacked any nearby…

Wow. Those hornets seem surprisingly clever. I know Yellowjackets, we have them in Argentina. Their bite is said to be extremely painful but I haven't been bitten yet despite some pretty reckless behavior on my part. One nice afternoon I was having a snack in a cafeteria, by the open window, and a bunch of yellowjackets started dipping in my drinks and my pie. Apparently they like raw meat (locals use it to drive the…

White-faced hornets[0] are a lot more painful than yellowjackets[1] (they are about twice as big, but pretty much the same configuration).

I don't think yellowjackets will swarm, if a forager gets killed. Don't step on one of their nests, though (they dig holes). Also have a friend who did that, once. Also, if you get close to one of their nests (hard to see), they might swarm you.

The biggest difference, is that yellowjackets are much more aggressive foragers, so it's easy to piss off individuals. I had [yet another] friend that imbibed one that went into his can of soda. He tells me the experience left his lip swollen like a cartoon, for several days.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolichovespula_maculata

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowjacket

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#235

Post by mibsl » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 5:22 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #194

heavyset_go wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's not a big disadvantage to survival" can't be the explanation for a trait Why not? Honest question. Intuitively, I'd say that there are plenty of traits that propagate as long as they aren't expensive in terms of genetic survival. It's the nature of random genetic mutation, random traits will develop and some of them won't really affect survival and may propagate.

Yes, traits can propagate even if there is no selective pressure for them. But they won't reach 100% of the species, even less so 100% of several geographically separated species (such as African and European bees) just because they aren't that bad. Could we contrive a story where it could be possible something like this does happen? Sure, but it would be very unlikely (basically, it would require only a small popula…

IIRC genetic drift can reach 100%.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#236

Post by cryptonector » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 6:26 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #234

the_af wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Those hornets seem surprisingly clever. I know Yellowjackets, we have them in Argentina. Their bite is said to be extremely painful but I haven't been bitten yet despite some pretty reckless behavior on my part. One nice afternoon I was having a snack in a cafeteria, by the open window, and a bunch of yellowjackets started dipping in my drinks and my pie. Apparently they like raw meat (locals use it to drive the…

White-faced hornets[0] are a lot more painful than yellowjackets[1] (they are about twice as big, but pretty much the same configuration). I don't think yellowjackets will swarm, if a forager gets killed. Don't step on one of their nests, though (they dig holes). Also have a friend who did that, once. Also, if you get close to one of their nests (hard to see), they might swarm you. The biggest difference, is that yel…

Neither bees nor wasps will swarm if far from their nests mainly because there won't be many as they forage in a solitary manner.

But when hornets attack as a group, then they swarm, and they use their pheromones to aid in swarming. See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onq9ixC7OEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00mEROqKwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx2EA_ooCf0

where beekeepers use sticky sheets to get one hornet and then all the other hornets will join the one because they are all attracted to its aid by its pheromones.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#237

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 6:33 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #193

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This presumes that proto-bees had stingers that killed them before being super organisms, so that the obvious survival disadvantage that dying after a successful attack brings was compensated by the hive life rather than by surviving the sting. I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion, this logic seems to be flawed. Of course it can be an explanation for a trait. If you are genetically predisposed to high cho…

> Of course it can be an explanation for a trait. If you are genetically predisposed to high cholesterol, is that advantageous or disadvantageous? There's simply too little pressure to do anything about it. If barbed stingers were a variation that occurred in some individual bees, but many other bees didn't have them, like predisposition to cholesterol in humans, then I'd agree. But a trait can't be universal in a sp…

> If barbed stingers were a variation that occurred in some individual bees, but many other bees didn't have them, like predisposition to cholesterol in humans, then I'd agree.

What makes you believe they are not a "variation" in individual bees? Colony genetics are fascinating and can facilitate some pretty extreme variation.

Could a single queen's mutation be responsible for all barbs? You have some hidden constraints here that I don't think we agree on.

> They generally are. The likelihood of a random mutation that produces several phenotypal changes but leaves the organism still viable is extremely low.

This is simply wrong. There are always plenty of potential mutations that cripple viability, sure. But pleiotropy in general is relatively common. In some species more than others.

Your reasoning here is heavily flawed. You firmly believe evolution and genetics work in a particular way that simply does not reflect reality. You are putting your belief in "survival of the fittest" first. I encourage you to broaden your horizons.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#238

Post by thaumasiotes » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 6:38 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #198

thaumasiotes wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching a youtube video by a beekeeper demonstrating that a bee stuck in his arm will gently wiggle itself around until it can pull free and fly away. Between that one guy with his live demonstration and his plentiful experience being stung by bees, and you with everything you've ever read, I'm obviously going to stick with him. You should read better sources. Here, an example of how bees behave after stinging meat:…

Here is an example of a bee disemboweling itself: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/u9YDf9w6Ps8 Here is another one: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/fMxZ4vKmOZo So I've countered your two anecdotes with two anecdotes of my own. Can we go back to looking at what people studying bees have written? For example, this article interviews two bee scientists that confirm that the majority of honeybees die via self-disembowelment aft…

> So I've countered your two anecdotes with two anecdotes of my own. Can we go back to looking at what people studying bees have written?

No? You claimed that bees stinging meat cannot survive. Your anecdotes do nothing to support that. Decide what you want to say, then look for support. Where do you get the idea that two examples of something happening provide just as much support for the idea that it always happens as four examples of it not happening do for the idea that it doesn't always happen?

But for what it's worth, Aristotle wrote in the 4th century BC that bees stinging humans often recover, but that they will inevitably die if they lose their stinger.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#239

Post by thaumasiotes » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 6:40 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #212

tsimionescu wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an example of a bee disemboweling itself: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/u9YDf9w6Ps8 Here is another one: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/fMxZ4vKmOZo So I've countered your two anecdotes with two anecdotes of my own. Can we go back to looking at what people studying bees have written? For example, this article interviews two bee scientists that confirm that the majority of honeybees die via self-disembowelment aft…

I'm not sure why this answer is buried down so deep. It should be pretty obvious. The average bee has no reason to ever fight a mammal. Optimizing for a rare event like that makes no sense. It's only once humans started domesticating honey bees that the interaction between honey bees and mammals has become a frequent occurrence. Surviving attacks against humans that help you survive is a really strange priority.

> It's only once humans started domesticating honey bees that the interaction between honey bees and mammals has become a frequent occurrence.

This can't possibly be true; the honeyguides are a family of birds whose evolved behavior is to find humans and lead them to wild beehives so that the humans can forage the honey (and the honeyguide can forage the leftovers).

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#240

Post by enugu » Sun, Jan 19, 2025, 7:15 PM UTC

wruza wrote: post #226

enugu wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting analogy, thanks. But, doesn't this match the parent comment's point? If someone asks why a particular point and not, a nearby point is on the fractal, the reply is just that complicated program generated this number and not another number. It leads to the theme of incompressibility (is there a program of smaller length which can correctly check whether a point in a given region is on the fracta…

This analogy doesn’t really answer it, it only shows that there’s no generic answer. So “fittest” basically means “the result”. It’s a definition, not explanation. But it is used instead of “the result” because we have some insights into how it was calculated, and we know that the nature simply creates {mi,bi,tri}llions of variants and then some minuscle amount has better chances to pass and mix these genes, outplayi…

Sure, you won't get exact predictions on which genetic codes are realized. Similar to how statistical physics doesn't predict microstates, but the macro picture is understood. Even that might be too ambitious for complicated systems, but you can still have sensible predictions from evolution theory which looks at a landscape and says that there will be animals with tall necks and predators with very fast speeds even if you didn't know beforehand about giraffes and cheetahs.

In the fractal analogy, the compressed theory does not predict that exactly this point does/does-not lie on the fractal, but predicting whether a small disc around the point intersects the fractal.