Live data from Hacker News

Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

chinatalk.media

231–240 of 476 posts

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#231
post #222
post #219

Leading from the rear, with subterfuge and theft. Keep going, China, you’re an inspiration to us all.

There's no reason to think Deepseek is engaged in any such practices. It's also open source unlike many of the western counterparts

You posit that individual freedoms exist inside China?

I posit they do not.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#232
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The director of the WHO— who is Ethiopian, not a US puppet—is on record saying that the lab withheld data and China has rebuffed multiple attempts to collect the data that the WHO feels was withheld. How is that not a basis for the conspiracy theory? I'm not even saying that it's right, it just confuses me to hear you so fervently insist that there's no basis for the idea when the WHO director himself says that there…

The jump between 'data was withheld' and 'there was a coverup of an incredibly improbable thing happening' compared to 'very probable thing that was also supported by data happening' is colossal. Absence of data isn't a free pass that lets you fill in whatever blanks you want, to fit whatever improbable theory you want. Especially when a plausible, probable, data supported alternative exists. At the moment, given wha…

Sorry, I edited my comment to ask this as the conclusion:

> Why is a wet market a more convincing explanation than a lab whose explicit mission is studying coronaviruses, one which has been publicly called out for being uncooperative with the ensuing investigation?

It's possible that the widespread belief in this explanation is a failure in science communication and there's a good reason for this, but it's not a failure in critical thinking on the part of those who are skeptical of the official story. The official story has an enormous unexplained hole. I've yet to see anyone effectively communicate why the intuitively more probable answer is the less probable one.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#233
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making drones / evs / high end electornics China does have a current advantage on lithium battery and rare earth materials - dumb technologies that US and allies can replicate fairly quickly, less than a year. EUV and 3nm and below on the other hand, will take decades, since it involves a number of different and deep technologies controlled by dozens of companies. China has thrown $150B on it since 2014, and has on…

> when real estate prices have dropped by more than 50% in tier 2 and below cities, and deflation has raged on. Can other economies copy that part? I know a bunch of people who'd like to be able to afford more houses & more groceries at the same time. I'd like that, I can't realistically afford a house in the city I live in without a 50% price drop. I'm sure China has a lot of problems, but key goods getting cheaper…

It's commonly referred to as a deflationary spiral because the falling prices lead to people (perhaps counterintuitively) holding off from large purchases, anticipating a continued drop in prices. Sort of a "buy the bottom" mentality.

The lack of spending then further contributes to falling prices, job cuts, businesses closing, etc. It's really not a situation any economy _wants_.

That said, I empathize with your sentiment.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#234
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RIP Northvolt from Sweden and The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-techno... . However: - Battery Startup Opens Chicago Plant as US Seeks to Curb Reliance on China https://www.nanograf.com/media/battery-startup-opens-chicago... - Our own YC: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/industry/energy - China’s startup scene…

> RIP Northvolt Northvolt isnt lacking funding (pedantically they are, else they wouldnt be bankrupt) or clients, but know-how for scaling putting aside some conspiracy theories about Chinese equipments. Turns out scaling isnt easy. vanadium redox flow isnt very big yet even for Energy Storage System Side note: The tendency US and Westernin general to depend on Wunderwaffe tech (Vanadium Redox! Solid State Battery!)…

> Side note: The tendency US and Westernin general to depend on Wunderwaffe tech is quite amusing.

Japan too. It's a sign of helplessness and desperation, as much as I would prefer not to see that. They procrastinated and now see themselves behind.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kai-Fu Lee describes the culture so well in AI Superpowers. The roots are well before GPU restriction. Absolute cut throat competition. Imagine Sam Altman throwing a chair out a window in a meeting lol. The message of AI Superpowers is that China will lag the US at first but once things stabilize this will happen because China has a lot more engineers and a lot more data. Anyone who hasn't read AI Superpowers should…

I don't know, I've been hearing the story that China is about to upend the US as the leading global superpower ever since I was a kid. There's always a new vogue and novel twist put on the rationale and how it's gonna happen, but so far it's like fusion, always a few years away.

[deleted]

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#236
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making drones / evs / high end electornics China does have a current advantage on lithium battery and rare earth materials - dumb technologies that US and allies can replicate fairly quickly, less than a year. EUV and 3nm and below on the other hand, will take decades, since it involves a number of different and deep technologies controlled by dozens of companies. China has thrown $150B on it since 2014, and has on…

> when real estate prices have dropped by more than 50% in tier 2 and below cities, and deflation has raged on. Can other economies copy that part? I know a bunch of people who'd like to be able to afford more houses & more groceries at the same time. I'd like that, I can't realistically afford a house in the city I live in without a 50% price drop. I'm sure China has a lot of problems, but key goods getting cheaper…

Much of real estate in china is not liveable. They are cheaply built projects without any infrastructure or people living in it.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making drones / evs / high end electornics China does have a current advantage on lithium battery and rare earth materials - dumb technologies that US and allies can replicate fairly quickly, less than a year. EUV and 3nm and below on the other hand, will take decades, since it involves a number of different and deep technologies controlled by dozens of companies. China has thrown $150B on it since 2014, and has on…

So why aren't US and allies demonstrably replicating EVs (and other kinds of green technology) quickly? Tesla is still pretty much the only serious player. Why are CEOs of major western carmakers painting a very different picture than what you describe here? Where are the serious EU/US battery makers that are globally competitive? It looks to me like the EU has chosen the worst of all options: put up tarriff barriers…

[deleted]

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#240

Impressive to think about how DeepSeek achieved: ~ Parity with o1 and Claude with > 10x less resources. Better algorithms and approaches are what's needed for the next step of ML.

We're seeing a split in models between deep and wide. Wide models sound like they know more than deep models but fail at reasoning with more than a few steps and are cheap to train and serve. Deep models know a lot less but can reason much better. An example I saw all moe models fail at a few months back was A and not B being implicit in the grounding text, all of them would turn it into A and B a substantial proport…

They may have a better approach for MoE selection during training:

> The key distinction between auxiliary-loss-free balancing and sequence-wise auxiliary loss lies in their balancing scope: batch-wise versus sequence-wise. Compared with the sequence-wise auxiliary loss, batch-wise balancing imposes a more flexible constraint, as it does not enforce in-domain balance on each sequence. This flexibility allows experts to better specialize in different domains. To validate this, we record and analyze the expert load of a 16B auxiliary- loss-based baseline and a 16B auxiliary-loss-free model on different domains in the Pile test set. As illustrated in Figure 9, we observe that the auxiliary-loss-free model demonstrates greater expert specialization patterns as expected.

And they have shared experts always present:

> Compared with traditional MoE architectures like GShard (Lepikhin et al., 2021), DeepSeekMoE uses finer-grained experts and isolates some experts as shared ones.

Post reply on HN