Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps • Hacker News Board

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#231

Post by mike978 » Wed, Dec 18, 2024, 11:54 PM UTC

papandada wrote: post #66

wolfhelius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a long drive where I listened to The Great Courses, which had a set on early Christianity. I think the professor was from Notre Dame. The early church was wrestling with polytheism (is the OT god seemed really different from the NT god) and it eventually had to get resolved by the Council at Nicaea at Constantine's behest.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

For those curious about the trinity what it is and why it is important to Christian faith I highly recommend Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves [1]

"...what kind of God could outstrip the attractions of all other things? Could any unitary, single-person god do so? Hardly, or at least not for long. Single-person gods must, by definition, have spent eternity in absolute solitude. Before creation, having no other persons with whom they could commune, they must have been entirely alone.

Love for others, then, cannot go very deep in them if they can go for eternity without it. And so, not being essentially loving, such gods are inevitably less than lovely. They may demand our worship, but they cannot win our hearts. They must be served with gritted teeth.

How wonderfully different it is with the triune God. In John 17:24, Jesus speaks of how the Father loved Him even before the creation of the world. That is the triune, living God: a Father, whose very being has eternally been about loving His Son, pouring out the Spirit of love and life on Him. Here is a God who is love, who is so full of life and blessing that for eternity He has been overflowing with it..."

[1] https://www.unionpublishing.org/resource/delighting-in-the-t...

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#232

Post by NemoNobody » Wed, Dec 18, 2024, 11:58 PM UTC

ARandomerDude wrote: post #163

marky1991 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of…

Agreed except for this comment. > parts of the ceremonial law are still valid Westminster Confession 19.3: “All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the new testament.” The reason the ceremonial law is abrogated is because it pointed forward to Christ who was to come. But since Christ has come, retaining the ceremonial law is tantamount to denying Christ (see full text of WCF 19.3 and book of Hebrews). If y…

All the law was ended by Jesus and replaced by The Greatest Commandment, as it is the only law that we need.

To follow every law within the Bible except that one is to fail to follow Jesus - to follow only that law and none of the others is fine by him according to his own words.

Speaking any law as higher than the law laid down by the Son of God himself is denying Christ.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#233

Post by o11c » Wed, Dec 18, 2024, 11:58 PM UTC

markovs_gun wrote: post #96

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Holy Holy Holy" is most definitely a reference to the (Hebrew) book of Isaiah, which was also quoted in the (Christian) book of Revelation aka Apocalypse (Greek, New Testament) Could you expand on that? Is there any specific reference to the book of Isaiah, and is "holy" (AGIOS in the Latin of the scroll) a good translation of the Hebrew word?

Agios- direct transliteration from the Greek "'άγιος" which is the exact term used in Isaiah 6:3 in the popular Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint. If not a "good" translation, it's certainly an old one, being the word Christians and Jews in that part of the world would have been familiar with in the Book of Isaiah for hundreds of years before this amulet was made.

In defense of the Septuagint, there are several places where the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with it against the Masoretic Text.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#234

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:01 AM UTC

ARandomerDude wrote: post #215

marky1991 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, the confession considers 'remember the sabbath' to be 'moral law', not ceremonial, also 19.3 . Thanks for the reminder!

Exactly right. One way to know the Sabbath is moral rather than ceremonial is the Sabbath was established in Genesis 2:1-3. That means the Sabbath pre-dates the Law, and even pre-dates sin. So Adam and Eve would have kept the Sabbath before the Fall, and so would have all their posterity if they had never fallen. As confirmation of that idea, Exodus 20:11 states that the reason God gives the fourth commandment is bec…

Adam and Eve had no conception of the Sabbath - they never worked or labored for anything prior to leaving the garden. God walked and talked with them daily, whenever apparently - what need for their to be to recognize that which is accessible and available all the days.

What purpose would a God have at all for the life inside his creations to set aside 1/7 of their time "for him" anyways?

Lots of silly, silly stuff people say God thinks

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#235

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:07 AM UTC

kcplate wrote: post #227

nemomarx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah, opulent temples are in line with Jewish traditions but the other poster is suggesting that's not in line with the teaching of the new testament specifically?

Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have…

Does this story feel legit to you?

Judas - the Betrayer who trades his divine friend with like tons of followers and influence for silver pieces, 30 of them I think, Judas speaks to materialism as unnecessary and Jesus corrects him as "well for me and my Dad, expensive is appropriate" - the guy who gets to town and is all like, "where the tax collectors and prostitutes be at?" They were the most controversial figures in that society...

Today, were Jesus to show up today, already having been born to some woman immaculately a fews back, he wouldn't step foot into a Church with his name on it - you'd be far more likely to find him hanging out with Trans people, homeless - he tended to have a thing for broken people, something about improving them and whatnot.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#236

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:08 AM UTC

mistrial9 wrote: post #166

jajko wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody outside of religions (thank you both parents, probably the greatest gift one can give to one's kids - freedom of faith and self determination, something almost impossible as adult if indoctrinated young), these kind of discussions are funny to me. Why? They are present in every corner of the world, every religion. And all you need is to take few steps back and stop taking everything literally, trying to f…

that's all brave and probably well intentioned, but there is another side to it. The Bible was specifically "a single agreed upon text" so that groups of people in real life could stop fighting about theology points, big and small. It still exists today. "The Bible is the Truth" end of statement. It is not because you personally cannot find new meaning in non-Bible things.. it is specifically to get groups of people…

Ok, I once believed this also but I've now read the Bible's "iterations" - the Bible that exists now has been heavily edited, added to and changed.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#237

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:09 AM UTC

batch12 wrote: post #57

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go in…

While your reference talks about prayer which is distinct from worship, I think that the instructions around prayer and worship are related. However, I dont think the message is to be reserved, but instead be honest. I understand this verse to mean don't be fake, God knows your heart. Be real. Here are a few examples that reinforce why I think this. When talking to the Samaritan woman at the well Jesus talks about wo…

Exactly this - very well said.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#238

Post by krapp » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:09 AM UTC

kcplate wrote: post #227

nemomarx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah, opulent temples are in line with Jewish traditions but the other poster is suggesting that's not in line with the teaching of the new testament specifically?

Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have…

It does seem like an odd attitude for a messiah who commands his followers to give up their entire identity for a life of extreme poverty and charity - who took a whip to the moneychangers in the temple and denounced the rich as unworthy of heaven - to insist on opulence and luxury for himself. I think Judas had a point.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#239

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:14 AM UTC

madars wrote: post #220

abrenuntio wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a catastrophe, not just esthetically but spiritually as well. It has nothing to do with austerity or wealth. Some of the churches no longer seek to express holiness ("having been set aside for God") and support the numinous and eternal nature of the divine liturgy that takes place in them. One of the most breathtaking pictures I've ever seen in this regard is of Mass in a German church completely destroyed durin…

Exactly. Sacred architecture flows necessarily from essence (what church is) through substance (can't be accident or easy-to-vary) into form (matter receiving truth). Regrettably, accidents get commonly confused for substance like mistaking material poverty for spiritual authenticity, or adorning for corruption. Poor churches in middle ages still had a golden chalice (for literal God), cruciform layout (or other hard…

No. You are wrong. No fine stuff necessary for Jesus or his Dad.

Does God need an altar to be elevated? Who does that altar actually elevate exactly? Who most benefits from the splendor and opulence?

We cannot create anything so nice that it would be more than a 4 year olds drawing for the fridge - God created all things but is super impressed by Gold chalice, sees that as a show of sincerity rather than action and belief and faith - uh huh, sure he does - you kno what they say about rich people at the gates of heaven right??

They don't ever get there.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#240

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 12:16 AM UTC

abrenuntio wrote: post #99

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go in…

"This perfume was worth an entire year's wages. Why wasn't it sold and the money given to the poor?" Sacred art exists to honor the Lord. We ourselves may remain poor and humble in the middle of all this beauty :-)

Yeah... and it's for God and the King that he so divinely ordained rule over all of us bc that is how that was, the church and the palace had all the money and they supported each other for thousands of years