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California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

latimes.com

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Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#231

Post by hintymad »

alephnerd wrote: post #192
hintymad wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about G&T program per se, either. Nor did my country have it when I grew up. I do care about education. I guess my fundamental assumption is that when everyone maximizes their full potential, the outcome will naturally be different. So, pushing students to realize their potential will be against equity, but will be the best way to minimize the equity gap. Now the nuances for us in the US specifically: th…

> a straight-A student failed her organic chemistry class in Brown University OChem is a weed-out class for pre-med students in every university. CHEM 0350/0360 are notorious weed-outs at Brown. > I guess my fundamental assumption is that when everyone maximizes their full potential, the outcome will naturally be different At some point, it comes down to individuals. I've studied at Community Colleges, State Schools,…

> I've studied at Community Colleges, State Schools, and Ivies/Ivy Adjacent programs, and the curriculum is largely comparable.

I'm very happy with the education system of the US colleges too. I was specifically talking about trainings in high school.

> The un-PC truth is this comes down to parenting. If parents don't help guide or motivate their kids, most kids will stagnate.

At least this was not true in my personal experience. My parents gave me love and support, but they gave me zero relevant guidance on how to study. Funny that my parents told me that "just make sure you understand your textbook and can solve all the problems on it, and you will excel" because that was their experience in college. Yet they had no idea that we had no problem understanding textbooks, and questions we got from our teachers were miles deeper than our textbook. Merely following textbook will guarantee failure, except for the truly talented (this is very different from the US textbooks. Books like CLRS and Jackson's Electrodynamics are famous for tough exercises and deep discussions, but high-school textbooks, at least in my country, cover only the basics).

> There's no point truly optimizing for "gifted" students - the truly gifted will be able to succeed in any environment.

I guess it depends on what we mean by "gifted". If you are talking about gifted as in those who push themselves, who took initiative to find resources, who are so competitive or passionate that constantly seek challenges, then yeah, I are truly gifted and will stand out.

On the other hand, if you are talking about those who are like me, then I doubt we don't need to push them in high school. I got multiple wakeup calls because my teachers gave us challenging problem sets, so I realized that I didn't really learn as well as I thought.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#232

Post by r00fus »

teractiveodular wrote: post #218
r00fus wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, societies like USSR and Communist China, that persecuted their geniuses, collapsed their previously great societies. China is doing fine. In fact they're probably going to eclipse the US soon in terms of scientific output. USSR fell for the trap of trusting the West and consequently they suffered a lot in the 90s.

Mao's policies including the persecution of intellectuals during the Cultural Revolution killed millions and set China back by decades.

Yes, that happened. It's also undeniable that since then, they've massively improved the lifestyle of 1.4B people.

I'm not sure if they get to where they are today - without going through the Maoist stage.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#233

Post by laidoffamazon »

elzbardico wrote: post #152
laidoffamazon wrote: post #123

I think we should stop focusing on the cognitive elite at the expense of everyone else, actually. Why should people that think folks like me are failures deserve the bulk of our attention?

Man. I understand you are not in a good moment (given your handle). But a lot of those people who think you're a failure are not the smart ones, but the powerful ones.

I haven't worked at Amazon for several years now, but people that make up G&T Programs in California suburbs definitely would consider someone like me to be a failure due to where I went to school and where I work/worked. I hesitate to say they're not smart, they are, but they're also powerful.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#234

Post by krooj »

Spoom wrote: post #143
jltsiren wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have much experience with how education works in California, or in the US in general. But there is one universal issue with special programs for gifted kids: parents. It's hard to distinguish gifted kids from average kids with ambitious parents. If you let ambitious parents push their kids to programs they are not qualified for, they can easily ruin the programs for the actual gifted kids. Gifted programs wor…

In Ontario, access to these programs was gated by an IQ test given to all students based on the outcome of a standardized test (this was ~30 years ago, no idea what they do today). I'm not saying it was perfectly objective or equitable but it was a start at trying to make it objective. Are programs not doing something similar in California or elsewhere in the US?

Yep - I remember the CCAT from 4th grade that resulted in my being placed into a different class for 5th. AFAIK, we were given this test "cold" (no prep) and I remember it being timed.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#235

Post by DiggyJohnson »

zozbot234 wrote: post #195
phil21 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing truly progressive programs for the purpose of virtue signaling is a loss for society It's not just a loss for society. It's society-killing. Taking resources away from those who move society forward and spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" is a way your culture dies. Conquerers in the past used this strategy to win massive empires for themselves. It's a ridiculous self-own. This is perha…

> spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" If only. The school system is actually terrible at helping the most disadvantaged and marginalized students. These students would benefit the most from highly structured and directed instructional approaches that often have the pupils memorizing their "lesson" essentially word-for-word and getting prompt, immediate feedback on every question they answer[0] -…

Respectfully I'm not seeing how your point is surprising at all. Are you just saying that when we do spend money on disadvantaged (whatever word is correct for "opposite of gifted") it isn't effective?

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#236

Post by couchdb_ouchdb »

frmersdog wrote: post #84
couchdb_ouchdb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just ejected from Seattle Public Schools for this reason. My daughter, as a gifted student, was basically ignored by her teachers for the last 3 years because she was smart, and therefore they didn't have to worry about her. But, by ignoring her, she atrophied. Her standardized testing scores dropped every year. She no longer cared about learning. It truly is a regression to the mean.

In what way are you certain that she's gifted?

In Seattle, there's actually a test you can take to get you into the "HCC" program which is the gifted program in Seattle Public Schools. Seattle, however, has been trying (successfully) for years to dismantle it. So even if you pass the test, there's not very many places that you can go to get these services.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#237

Post by laidoffamazon »

phil21 wrote: post #159
laidoffamazon wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you looked at my resume you wouldn’t think I’m “moving society forward” - I went to a public undergrad with a 50% accept rate. What do you think should happen to people like me?

The fact you have a professional resume to point to likely means you are moving society forward. HN seems to have a weirdly high bar for this, and perhaps a very low understanding of just how bad "general" classes at inner city schools are.

This would imply a greater focus must be made to ensure they have a chance at success yes?

I'm exceedingly skeptical that there's a low bar for "moving society forward" if the bar is "being in a gifted and talented program or equivalent". But if society is made up of a small set of overmen burdened by pulling the undermen across the finish line I absolutely would be an underman.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#238

Post by bell-cot »

WillAdams wrote: post #224
bell-cot wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mississippi State Supreme Court ruled it illegal since ... I'm thinking the same legal rationalizations could be used to rule that high school football programs are illegal. No advantage conferred on the students who fail to make the team, and no free college for those who don't end up with an athletic scholarship.

The thing is, Title IX addressed this by requiring some level of equity in funding, at least in theory.

At most, Title IX addressed the "girl's can't make the team" issue here. Where's the equal funding for slow, out-of-shape klutzes?

(Actually, I don't know if Title IX addresses co-ed sports. And no matter how co-ed on paper, the rough nature nature of standard football will still result in anything-but-equal gender representation - both on the team, and in those scholarships.)

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#239

Post by couchdb_ouchdb »

foobarian wrote: post #199
couchdb_ouchdb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just ejected from Seattle Public Schools for this reason. My daughter, as a gifted student, was basically ignored by her teachers for the last 3 years because she was smart, and therefore they didn't have to worry about her. But, by ignoring her, she atrophied. Her standardized testing scores dropped every year. She no longer cared about learning. It truly is a regression to the mean.

I'm considering something similar but I find it hard to figure out a good alternative, because they all seem "nice," have smart words on the website, cost about the same (which is not little), but when you look at matriculation stats it's not that impressive or visibly better than public schools. And then a bunch of them are weird religious schools which gives me the heebie jeebies. I guess you really have to be part…

100% agree with you. We went with a religious option because of cost, and, despite the religious aspect, are finding it much better.

We couldn't afford the private schools that are ~$50K, but, like you say, higher cost doesn't necessarily mean better education.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#240

Post by [deleted] »

frmersdog wrote: post #84
couchdb_ouchdb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just ejected from Seattle Public Schools for this reason. My daughter, as a gifted student, was basically ignored by her teachers for the last 3 years because she was smart, and therefore they didn't have to worry about her. But, by ignoring her, she atrophied. Her standardized testing scores dropped every year. She no longer cared about learning. It truly is a regression to the mean.

In what way are you certain that she's gifted?

[deleted]
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