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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

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Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#231

Post by tiznow »

bradlys wrote: post #11
flog wrote: post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

It's not just H1-Bs from those cultures, either. I'll give everybody a fair shot but if your cultural mores are extreme deference to authority I'd like to be far away from you when doing anything serious. I'd argue that a certain level of distrust of authority is not only good but inherently American. And no, I'm not saying "Americans take criticism well."

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#232

Post by virtualritz »

Sounds culturally biased. From working in northern Europe and especially with people from Scandinavian countries, I'd say that for each of those examples the 'wrong' choice would be the more likely to be exchanged and taken at face value.

Whereas when I work with people from the US a lot of fluff is always needed or offense may be taken. Just as the article purports.

And there is also body language. Here is one of my favorite exchanges I once witnessed, between two senior leaders, one Spanish, one Finnish, after a few beers at a company party. I leave it to the inclined reader to guess who is from which country.

Sergio (gesticulating, grinning): Lauri, why don't you use your hands more when you're talking?

Lauri (hands flat on the table, straight face): Because it's not efficient.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#233

Post by aredox »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #180
refulgentis wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Fascinating: What companies do you know of that have democratic elections of CEOs?

Doesn't nearly every company have a democratic process for choosing CEOs? Just that the voters are only the board members.

So the Soviet system was democratic?

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#234

Post by Arech »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

Exactly this. Somewhat an issue here though, that this is essentially a matter of a person's culture. What you've said is most likely true for WEIRD (acronym) people, but for other cultures where retailiation is quite possible, one either have to dance that silly dances, or indeed polish their CV.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#235

Post by joz1-k »

roenxi wrote: post #207
lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

There is some important piece of context there though - if leaders aren't capable of the emotional intelligence to process blunt feedback, they are bad leaders and there is no hope of change . Learning to recognise them and just leave them alone is one of those valuable life skills that most employees learn sooner or later. Some people are just not going to take feedback and if they end up in management that is that;…

There is a lot of truth in this, but especially when developers are semi-randomly promoted into leadership roles, they should be given enough time (and mentorship) to learn from their own mistakes. Some will learn very quickly (those with enough emotional intelligence), and some will learn nothing no matter how much time you give them. Being a good manager with formidable leadership skills is something you can only get through experience.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#236

Post by cdavid »

danparsonson wrote: post #174
cdavid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week." This is the proper answer. Ultimately, feedback should be about changing something. My experience is that most people are neither…

Delegation is the managers job - it's not up to the subordinate to delegate on their managers behalf IMO.

One of the surest way to get your manager's back is to help them make their goals and put some stuff off their plates. Like other people said, most semi competent managers are aware of issues happening in their team. If you come up w/ some proposal to solve those issues, it will improve the team much more effectively than some feedback.

It also depends on your goals, but fixing some issues encountered by your manager is one of the most reliable way to promotion in up to mid size companies, unless your manager is a a*hole.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#237

Post by lazide »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #80
herval wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s nice in theory. In practice, the likelihood of you working for someone who’s unable to process the truth and will shoot the messenger is very high

I don’t know if it’s “very high”. It can happen but on average I think successful people tend to be more reasonable and intelligent than average (not always obviously).

When times are good? You have a chance.

When times are bad? Oh boy.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#238

Post by zug_zug »

The interesting thing in my mind is how dysfunctional I've found reporting chains' behavior (to the company). I've found the same thing others here have found -- certain cultural backgrounds or a large preponderance of H1Bs create a culture where upward feedback is silenced.

And in the end usually the company loses out - directors forge ahead with ill-informed projects (rewrite entire system X), don't measure/cherry-pick/game-metrics, and create a major threat to anybody on the team who surfaces any contraindicating metrics (e.g. "Our pipeline still takes Y hours and nobody is happy about it, including us").

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#239

Post by codr7 »

parpfish wrote: post #57
codr7 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking maybe we should be more careful in general with who we give these kinds of responsibilities to.

People can grow into their roles. You don’t expect junior devs to know everything one day one, so why would you expect a “junior[1]” manager? [1] I know the article is about senior managers, but it reads as though the mean “somebody more senior than me” and not “somebody who has been managing a long time”

The difference is the damage done.

I don't think training managers on real people is a good idea.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#240

Post by cle »

lazide wrote: post #214
cle wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the feedback is irrelevant, you'll waste the least amount of time by not giving it at all. (I think that's slightly different from your scenario though, where you don't actually know if it's irrelevant.)

And how would you know if it is irrelevant? See prior comment.

Depends on the org and how information travels. Knowing tricks like this are the superpowers of people who move up quickly in large orgs and make things happen. You can sometimes do fine without knowing this, and going through the "official" route of the direct feedback loop. If you can figure it out elsewhere though, it'll usually build more trust with your superiors.
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