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'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

theguardian.com

231–240 of 377 posts

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#231
post #213

This is a very basic article compared to the conversation here. Excel is incredible for being so simple to use for even the most basic tasks (Baby names v2.xlsx) to the much more complex data analysis. As someone who uses Excel for 75% of my workweek, I wouldn't trade it for a 10% comp increase, because doing so would increase my workload at least 25%. I recently tried moving to Google Sheets and it was unbelievable…

> Even things like how cells are frozen (if you're on B2, are you freezing the first row, or the first and second row?) just feels wrong. FWIW one my frustrations with Excel is how it does freezing of rows. I find Google's appraoch more intuitive. But the issues on computation I agree with (see my other comment on this post).

As a point of data, I also find how Google Sheets handles frozen rows/columns more intuitive.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#232
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does Excel do here that Google Sheets doesn’t? I don’t always carry my laptop with me, so local files are kind of annoying.

Google Sheets doesnt have Solver in the consumer version for one. In reference to your second statement though, I also dont always carry my laptop but it doesn't matter because my spreadhseets are in onedrive too, so I can close my laptop and open my phone and have the same spreadsheet with zero thought.

What problem does Solver solve? Reading the overview, I don't really understand how it would be useful.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/define-and-solve-...

> For example, you can change the amount of your projected advertising budget and see the effect on your projected profit amount.

I can do this without Solver.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#233

I like the programmers on here telling the professional users that Excel is overblown and they could just use Numbers, OpenOffice or Google sheets. Imagine an accountant coming on here and telling you that you don't need vi, emacs, sublime text or VSCode. You certainly don't need your IDEs. After all it's perfectly possible to code in Notepad. You also don't need your languages. BASIC was perfectly good. The killer f…

Excel spreadsheets are auditable? If that's the case, why do studies show that so many Excel spreadsheets have major errors in them? https://theconversation.com/spreadsheet-errors-can-have-disa... https://phys.org/news/2024-08-business-spreadsheets-critical... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=study+excel+spreadsheets+contain+e...

> If that's the case, why do studies show that so many Excel spreadsheets have major errors in them?

Your point, which is completely true, is not incompatible with GP's statement.

Excel is ubiquitous in the corporate world and most spreasheet in the corporate world are completely full of errors everywhere.

Not just errors but also broken assumptions.

I've been tasked with porting a spreadsheet to a dedicated app because people noticed numbers were off and, oh the clusterfuck. Never again.

The world started making much more sense to me from the moment I realized most business decisions were taken based on powerpoint presentation containing numbers coming from broken Excel spreadsheets.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Example: if you need to visualise your data from multiple sources company-wide, we'd have Tableau (and training, access, templates, portals etc) for example. That means you do it there as per instruction, and you don't go trying to setup some home-brew graph in excel that you manually regenerate every day and forget to generate when you are on vacation. Then your CFO calls up and says, 'I have a meeting in 30 minute…

In the real world (which is where my example comes from) the CFO expects it in Tableau, all day, every day and isn't going to waste time on the phone with some random people who were assigned to put it in tableau. Perhaps you don't like this example, but that doesn't make it less real.

Ok. My real world counterpoint. I work for a CFO at a multinational. A really big one. I have been the finance lead at a multinational myself, a smaller one.

Our business changes so rapidly that we are forever adding business units, acquiring, divesting, resizing. The ERP people are years behind us all of the time.

What should we do in the mean time with our new group of companies we just acquired? Wait for the IT people?

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those feelings are nice, but Excel in most context is just a liability. The intersection where a spreadsheet is the right tool for the job, and the job is performed by someone who doesn't have many options is pretty small. In business cases, the risk with home grown spreadsheet 'workflows' is pretty big, and in home usage cases you don't really need more than just a basic spreadsheet. The intersection is perhaps wher…

I think you misunderstand 'workflows' in business. This is not a case of ingesting a large amount of data, transform, analyse etc. A normal finance team gets constant one off requests for information. Download something from the ERP, lookup against something else, pivot it by department. Then you get a follow up for the same but with x excluded, but they need it in 10 minutes before a meeting. Excel is great for that…

I doubt I misunderstand it since this is what I get paid for. I'm also not suggesting this is a case of large data, ETL or anything like that. (what I'm writing about is people using it for that anyway which is what we have other systems for and they should not be doing that)

Our finance teams use excel too, but not as the 'do everything' tool that the article and plenty of comments here makes it out to be. They use it as a scratchpad, and it works well. But it doesn't contain ground truth, ever.

This one perhaps matches with 99% of the rant I wrote:

> Then inventory, maybe the ERP didn't split it in the way your consolidation needs it, so you transform the data in Excel and reconcile it back

While we primarily deal with Dynamics (AX and 365), pretty much everything fits in there. In some cases the clunky UI makes it slow to do some transformations, even if just to check something to (as you wrote, verify the software did what it was supposed to do), and then you dump a couple of thousand rows out, do your work, and either are happy with what was verified or load some transformed data back in (this hasn't really been needed as we revised our rules as to data locations a few years ago, not in terms of "do this or you get fired" but in terms of "please make sure that when external systems outside of your team streams data in or out of the ERP, the chance of it not being correct is as low as you can get it").

As I wrote in some other reply (which some people appear to disagree with as if it's something I made up), my issue is with the horror cases of people building their own mini-ERP in a set of excel workbooks, or not using shared systems for data sharing and governance but instead emailing files around. Maybe it's the little learning being a dangerous thing, or feeling confident in a tool also giving people false confidence to perform actions that really should not be done that way.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#236
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very uncommon to use them for any common expenses like groceries or gas. I use them for a quarterly HOA payment, yearly CPA tax preparation, petty government fines and fees, and donations to charity. Generally things that you mail a payment for and you want a record of the payment. Most of these I could do electronically but I don't really save any time doing so because of the friction of setting up the payment.

> Generally things that you mail a payment for I’m sorry but this sentence makes absolutely zero sense to my europoor brain. What do you mean when you say mail a payment and why would you need to do that. I literally lack the imagination.

When I want to transfer currency units to entities which are not within range of any personal locomotion apparatus, I utilize a government service that transfers paper parcels anywhere in the country for a fixed rate. A few days later the receiver redeems the check for currency units deposited into their banking account.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#237
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those feelings are nice, but Excel in most context is just a liability. The intersection where a spreadsheet is the right tool for the job, and the job is performed by someone who doesn't have many options is pretty small. In business cases, the risk with home grown spreadsheet 'workflows' is pretty big, and in home usage cases you don't really need more than just a basic spreadsheet. The intersection is perhaps wher…

Write a piece of software that ends Excel’s dominance and then I will take your opinion seriously. I hate Excel for many reasons but it is king for a reason.

Which 'opinion' would that be. The one where I write about anecdotes from the real world?

We have software that does what is needed. An ERP, a CRM, a HMI, a case management system for legal etc. No need to have everyone on every team rebuild that in excel.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#238

most people in tech don't get what Excel is imo. start with the idea that it's a fully featured virtual machine that uses a different interface metaphor than a command line or windowing. it's useful to think of it as an abstraction layer where business runs, it's where value is demonstrated. those user spreadsheets are computers/hosts/vms and I'd argue that's often the disconnect between what technologists think they…

Most people do get that and why it's useful. But it's like ssh-ing into a vm to do anything in production. It works, but goes against any engineering principle we have. We write bespoke scripts and I think no one would begrudge anyone trying to do quick a quick computation on anything tabular. But then you got complicated business processes that are held together by spreadsheets and it's a nightmare scenario when you know how much people trust the computer. It's easy and fast, but we'd like some more reliability.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there are so many spreadsheets? The studies show the percentage of spreadsheets with errors in. Unless you have a reason to suspect this is not independent of the number of spreadsheets, I'm not sure what your point is? > Now think of 100 pieces of software that you are confident are 100% error free? Because software is either buggy or not buggy? And measurements like "defect rate" (e.g. defects/kloc) and "…

Unless your software is formally verified how would you know? I have to say my experience as a user has been that all software is buggy to some extent. Anyone who has worked in software for a reasonable amount of time will have found a bug in their own code that apparently worked fine, but actually was not quite right. Would anybody on hn stand up and say that they never had a bug?

I think you misunderstand the point of the poster you are responding to.

They are trying to say that 100% error free is neither appropriate nor useful. It is a binary classification that throws away the important nuance.

That’s why they mention measures like “defect rate” and “bug severity”. Those measures are not currently being discussed here, and they should be.

Re: 'I grew up with it': readers on the enduring appeal of Microsoft Excel

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the profession. The company might shell out money for accounting to use excel. But PMs, engineers, TPMs, etc etc are likely to be told “hey we’re using google workplaces and aren’t going to buy you an excel license” unless you can make a very convincing case. That represents a shrinking pie for Excel even if specific professional use remains on Excel while everyone else moves on. Similar stuff happened wit…

I worked for an MSP in Europe, so IT provider. No company used Google Workspace. All where Office 365.

Equally I’ve never worked for a company in my life that uses office or 365. At most in one org the CFO and his direct report had office licenses for excel.

In working for a European company right now that is a pure google workspace shop. (Though I work remote and am not based in Europe myself.)

I’ve got zero idea how to use excel because I’ve simply never worked for an org that has deployed Microsoft products and I’m nearing 40.

Wild how different our experiences can be. I’d be totally open to trying out Microsoft products but it’s just never come up. In the same vein, I’ve never used windows in my career either (though I have administered windows server but that was only due to it being a requirement for some VMware stuff and it was treated like a leper.)

I started my career with Linux and most roles since have deployed/provided MacBooks with OSX.)

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