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Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

medscape.com

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Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#231

Post by iknowSFR »

Sharlin wrote: post #221
SoftTalker wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The system" has no interest in curing your depression. They want you to keep making therapy appointments, and they want you to keep refilling prescriptions. Individual doctors may or may not have this view. I'm talking about "the system." Just consider the incentives. That tells you all you need to know.

When "the system" subsidizes your therapy and your prescription drugs (as in most civilized societies), and indeed pays for your medical leave and loses value in the form of lost workdays, it definitely doesn't have much of an incentive to keep you in therapy or on drugs.

I get the impression that there’s misalignment on what “the system” is to each commenter here. One side views it as the larger society and the other as the pharmaceutical industry.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#232

Post by worik »

striking wrote: post #166
LocalH wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you the number of people who have died from SSRI misuse is higher than the number of people who have died from psilocybin misuse. I'm not referring to things a person may do in a given state, I'm talking about effects from the drugs themselves. I'm not aware of a single recorded person who has taken any dose of psilocybin, and died from "psilocybin overdose". While it may be uncommon, it is possible to ov…

Sure, psylocybin won't kill you, but the threat of inescapable psychological distress is real. Maybe it's less likely if you aren't predisposed to psychosis, but you can't easily know for sure that you're not. And yes, it's possible to misuse SSRIs, but taking an obviously oversize dose is still often a treatable situation. Combining them with depressants I think is a degree of misuse that is incomparable.

> but the threat of inescapable psychological distress is real.

Really?

That is true of any meaningful experience

The danger with psychedelic drugs is very low

They wear off

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#233

Post by worik »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #131
jorvi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Psylocybin? Easily? Err.. no? This is from the Dutch National Institute for Public Health and the Environment: https://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/rapporten/340001001.pdf Page 19 onward has the charts. What do do we find at the very low end in terms of chronic and acute toxicity? Shrooms (“paddos”) and LSD. It always blows my mind how anti-drug people will do a handwavey gesture to the authority of institutes like the…

> > You have to put effort into making an experience with psylocybin meaningful and helpful. It could go wrong very easily, especially for those who are in a difficult situation or headspace. (Speaking from experience.) > What do do we find at the very low end in terms of chronic and acute toxicity? Shrooms (“paddos”) and LSD. Breaking your mind doesn't count as toxicity. You're not responding to the point you tried…

> Breaking your mind doesn't count.....

Hyperbole

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#234

Post by anonymouse3112 »

Anecdotally: worked for me, would absolutely do it again.

People worry about various side-effects: I work extremely hard and know others who have done psychedelics and continue with b2b saas and similar.

That said, it’s serious stuff. I think it permanently increased the amount that I like music; other studies show longtitudinal changes to big-five personality traits. Proceed with caution.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#235

Post by pessimizer »

From what I recall, SSRIs only show an effect greater than placebo in major depression, and that effect goes away if the placebo is active (i.e. the placebo makes you a little sick, so you can "feel it working.")

Great idea to compare a new trendy treatment with promise of potential financial windfalls to another treatment that barely works. If you kept feeding them cocaine under medical supervision, they'd probably report feeling slightly better, too. They're recreational drugs. People take them because they feel good. The most common symptom of depression is to take refuge in drug consumption.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#236

Post by sedatk »

anonymouse3112 wrote: post #234

Anecdotally: worked for me, would absolutely do it again. People worry about various side-effects: I work extremely hard and know others who have done psychedelics and continue with b2b saas and similar. That said, it’s serious stuff. I think it permanently increased the amount that I like music; other studies show longtitudinal changes to big-five personality traits. Proceed with caution.

How do you even go about proper dosing and frequency of psilocybin use? Just random guess?

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#237

Post by rjbwork »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #82

Ok like most of you I’ve taken psychedelic drugs. I’ve had bad experiences sure, but I’m fine now. The issue is that what people generally say, like, “oh sometimes you need to encounter your demons,” maybe that will be temporarily traumatizing—in general people recover from that. The real issues are…more complex. More complex than any diagnoses in the DSM can cover. The brain is very complicated, and everyone’s brain…

>Thoughts came out of nowhere, I had no control over them; often the constant, unceasing flow of thought was distressing and uncomfortable.

I want to touch on this. "You" never have any control of your thoughts, because "you" isn't really a thing. Psychedelics and meditation teach us this if you pay close attention. The thoughts arise from nowhere and we - the imagined, but illusory - self are mere observers along for the ride that is consciousness.

I can imagine that using a substance such a psilocybin could cause your thought patterns to have both short and long term changes in quality (in terms of substance, not of superior gradation), however. It's also possible that your experience led to your paying greater attention to the thoughts that did arise, and over time the feedback loop of consciousness along with taking better care of yourself led to greater moderation of their genesis.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#239

Post by snek_case »

sedatk wrote: post #236
anonymouse3112 wrote: post #234

Anecdotally: worked for me, would absolutely do it again. People worry about various side-effects: I work extremely hard and know others who have done psychedelics and continue with b2b saas and similar. That said, it’s serious stuff. I think it permanently increased the amount that I like music; other studies show longtitudinal changes to big-five personality traits. Proceed with caution.

How do you even go about proper dosing and frequency of psilocybin use? Just random guess?

You can look at studies done using psylocybin for a start, but also, adjust based on your own experience. Most people use between one and two grams of mushrooms, with two grams being quite strong strong for many people.

Some people are tempted to push the dosage so far as they can take it to experience "ego death", and I don't think that's necessary for therapeutic effects. Not quite sure how safe it is to push the dosage as high as you can either. There's some kind of esoteric belief in some circles that you'll get some magic enlightenment, connecting with another realm if you trip hard enough, but imo that mostly attracts people who already have fragile mental health.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#240

Post by notfed »

thegrim33 wrote: post #173

The results are based on a grand total of 25 people in the psilocybin group and 21 people in the SSRI group. The sample size is pretty small. The methodology is also kind of strange, the psilocybin group got a total of 20 hours of in-person therapy during their 'treatment' and 6 follow-up skype calls, whereas the SSRI didn't get anything other than the 6 month questionaire. Those 20 hours of personalized therapy whil…

If that's true, I'm confused how this is a "double-blind, randomized, controlled trial"?

Also, what's up with drug studies always having such a low sample size? Is it really that hard to find people who'd volunteer to get free drugs?

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