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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#231

Post by tzs »

ljsprague wrote: post #200
jmyeet wrote: post #32

If you're wondering if the Missouri governor Mike Parson sparingly uses his clemency and pardon power, you'd be mistaken [1]: > Parson, a former sheriff, has now granted clemency to more than 760 people since 2020 — more than any Missouri governor since the 1940s including those who waved guns at BLM protestors [2] and the son of the KC Chiefs coach who caused grave bodiy injuries to someone in a DUI. Available data…

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41% of people on death row currently in the US are black [1].

[1] https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-row/overview/demographics

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#232

Post by Beijinger »

nemothekid wrote: post #172
slibhb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like pretty strong evidence to me!

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

"In this quest for vengeance I think people forget these rules are in place for the State to not abuse it's powers. I'm not against the death penalty because I'm a hippy vegan. I'm against it because I don't think it's a power the state should be able to wield."

I am not sure what the US tries to achieve with the death penalty. Deterrence? Seems not to work. And EU countries have much lower violent crime. Even if they have assault rifles at home (Switzerland). Revenge? An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#233

Post by JumpCrisscross »

voisin wrote: post #72
TrackerFF wrote: post #47

So it seems that the original case rested on the following: - Williams GF witness testimony, that Williams confessed to her. - Jailhouse witness testimony, that Williams had confessed to them. - That Williams had items (purse, laptop, etc.) in his car, on the day or day after the murder. But no DNA evidence? A death penalty seems pretty egregious, when you have that kind of evidence. Seems like there's plenty of reas…

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

> argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction

The Governor's counterargument being the "girlfriend never requested the reward for information about Ms. Gayle’s murder, despite claims that she was only interested in money" [1].

The interesting thing is I could see myself, were I on the jury, and if the other facts of the case aligned, finding Williams guilty beyond reasonable doubt where the punishment is life without parole. But I can't reach the certainty I'd want for the death penalty. Yet that implies a tremendous amount of faith in my ability to finely distinguish probabilities of guilt, an ability I don't think I have.

This discussion is confusing because it's about two separate issues: a Rorschach test on your views on capital punishment and an orthogonal one about due process and William's guilt. (They're not orthogonal, but the interaction between those can probably be entirely described by the former.)

[1] https://governor.mo.gov/press-releases/archive/state-carry-o...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#234

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Beijinger wrote: post #232
nemothekid wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

"In this quest for vengeance I think people forget these rules are in place for the State to not abuse it's powers. I'm not against the death penalty because I'm a hippy vegan. I'm against it because I don't think it's a power the state should be able to wield." I am not sure what the US tries to achieve with the death penalty. Deterrence? Seems not to work. And EU countries have much lower violent crime. Even if the…

> not sure what the US tries to achieve with the death penalty. Deterrence?

Retribution, incapacitation and deterrence [1]. (In my opinion, in that order.)

[1] https://www.bsslawllc.com/blog/2021/12/the-four-pillars-of-s...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#235

Post by Beijinger »

anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

"Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment."

You shall not kill!

What I don't understand. It is my impression that most of the US states that still have the death penalty, strongly oppose abortion. I find this a contradiction. And also these are the states that oppose abortion, at the same time are strictly against any kind of welfare "not our problem!".

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#237

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kelthuzad wrote: post #190
slibhb wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pure speculation that the partial DNA profile recovered years after the murder came from the murderer. The police recovered the murdered woman's property from his car. How did it get there? Either it was an elaborate frame-up or a career criminal murdered a woman and stole her property. You (and The Innocence Project) apparently think that DNA must be found at the crime scene in order to convict. But is it the c…

You are severely misunderstanding the role of DNA evidence here - you suggest that those arguing for Williams' innocence (including The Innocence Project) rely solely on the absence of DNA evidence linking Williams to the crime. However, this misrepresents the argument. The absence of DNA evidence is significant not because DNA is expected to be found in every case, but because other substantial forensic evidence (fi…

> other substantial forensic evidence (fingerprints, footprints, hair) was found AND none matched Williams

Do you have a source for this? I thought "staff with the prosecutors’ office had mishandled the weapon after the killing – touching it without gloves before the trial," which "made it impossible to determine if Williams’s fingerprints could have been on the knife earlier" [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/24/missouri-exe...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#238

Post by xyzzyz »

Beijinger wrote: post #232
nemothekid wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

"In this quest for vengeance I think people forget these rules are in place for the State to not abuse it's powers. I'm not against the death penalty because I'm a hippy vegan. I'm against it because I don't think it's a power the state should be able to wield." I am not sure what the US tries to achieve with the death penalty. Deterrence? Seems not to work. And EU countries have much lower violent crime. Even if the…

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#239

Post by EnigmaFlare »

Beijinger wrote: post #232
nemothekid wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

"In this quest for vengeance I think people forget these rules are in place for the State to not abuse it's powers. I'm not against the death penalty because I'm a hippy vegan. I'm against it because I don't think it's a power the state should be able to wield." I am not sure what the US tries to achieve with the death penalty. Deterrence? Seems not to work. And EU countries have much lower violent crime. Even if the…

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#240

Post by kelthuzad »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #237
kelthuzad wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are severely misunderstanding the role of DNA evidence here - you suggest that those arguing for Williams' innocence (including The Innocence Project) rely solely on the absence of DNA evidence linking Williams to the crime. However, this misrepresents the argument. The absence of DNA evidence is significant not because DNA is expected to be found in every case, but because other substantial forensic evidence (fi…

> other substantial forensic evidence (fingerprints, footprints, hair) was found AND none matched Williams Do you have a source for this? I thought "staff with the prosecutors’ office had mishandled the weapon after the killing – touching it without gloves before the trial," which "made it impossible to determine if Williams’s fingerprints could have been on the knife earlier" [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-…

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/09/23/missou... - "Among the evidence police collected: bloody shoeprints and fingerprints, a knife sheath and the suspect's hair collected from Gayle's shirt, hands and the floor. Missing from the house were Gayle's purse and jacket, and her husband's laptop."
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