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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#231

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

brigadier132 wrote: post #222
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The degrees do pay for themselves on average. Bachelor's degreeholders have median earnings $525/week higher than high school graduates ( https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2022/data-on-display/educa... ), which over the course of a career would cover even the most egregious student debt loads. That's precisely why it's a hard problem; we could just warn kids not to jump into the debt trap if it weren't genuinely wort…

I heard an interesting fact a couple of days ago, The median student that graduated from college starting in 2009 had more debt than what they started with after 12 years and it's only gotten worse. So your belief that it will cover the most egregious is not true for the median student. Given that, I'm also interested in how those lifetime earnings increases are distributed across degrees.

This kind of "fact" always raises alarm bells for me. Did you hear it because it's true, or because it sounds compelling while being impractical to disprove?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#232

Post by pixodaros »

mezzie2 wrote: post #176
SamuelAdams wrote: post #125

> Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy again. I would like to see the author back this up with more considerations. Bankruptcy disappears from all credit reports after seven years. The average age of first time home buyers is 35. So if a new grad’s credit is trashed from the age of 23-30, it makes no difference to them - they are not planning on using credit for anything substantial anyways. What is going t…

I feel like allowing bankruptcy in certain situations would make sense. For example, I took out undergraduate and graduate loans to train for a career that, due to a freak health event (I got MS) in my last semester of grad school, I couldn't actually do . Currently, the disability discharge works in a way where if you can do any work at all you're on the hook for the full amount. So someone who went to school to bec…

Think of people who started a Computer Science degree in 2019 or 2020 (yes, individuals can maximize their chances of getting a software development job after university, but as a collective many of them will have to do something else for the foreseeable future).

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#233

Post by Izikiel43 »

paulcole wrote: post #139
scoofy wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

20 years to pay 20k$?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#234

Post by VirusNewbie »

spamizbad wrote: post #190
lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I feel like the key thing missing from this discussion are the employers who still demand these degrees. Let's say we reformed both higher education and student loans - does that have any meaningful impact on the demand side beyond pushing the salaries of degree holders up (thus increasing the value of a degree, thus making larger loan values easier to justify, thus...)

Most good employers, especially in tech, don't require degrees these days.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#235

Post by elashri »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #216
NemoNobody wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - 12 years of education to get children ready to be citizens and not single class on how to manage a bank account, or even the most basic education about investments or actual wealth building. Instead, all I was told was to go to college. So... the people that made me woefully sheep like and "financially innocent" then sent me to the wolves because they believed in me. Seriously, they made huge changes to the…

> not single class on how to manage a bank account, or even the most basic education about investments or actual wealth building. Not everything can be, or is supposed to be, taught by schools. Your parents should've taught you those things, and if they didn't do that they failed you.

What if I lost my parents before they got the chance to teach me that?

What if I was raised in a foster care and I never knew who my parents were?

And what if my parents don't know these things themselves?

There are many ways that this logic goes wrong. The school should teach that because it is very important lesson to engage in a society and be a good citizen.

Edit: Sorry I meant people raised in orphanages not foster care. I wasn't in focus enough while writing this. Sorry if this caused hard feelinga for anyone

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#236

Post by Izikiel43 »

mbrumlow wrote: post #224
jancsika wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people agreeing to these debts, by definition, do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. I guarantee you that law/med school students have an education in "complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged." Because before the current law was passed, they were the ones abusing the old "complex debt instruments" to discharge debt they knew they'd be able to pay back once th…

You flew too close to the sun. You can’t argue with a bunch of people who are in debt and learned that playing the victim pays. It’s funny. That everybody is mad at the banks and schools. But the politicians and do good laws passed are what caused all of this. Banks did it want to give loans out for shitty degrees to people who would probably not pay them back. So laws were passed to force banks they had to give out…

> banks did it

Banks didn’t?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#237

Post by brigadier132 »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #231
brigadier132 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard an interesting fact a couple of days ago, The median student that graduated from college starting in 2009 had more debt than what they started with after 12 years and it's only gotten worse. So your belief that it will cover the most egregious is not true for the median student. Given that, I'm also interested in how those lifetime earnings increases are distributed across degrees.

This kind of "fact" always raises alarm bells for me. Did you hear it because it's true, or because it sounds compelling while being impractical to disprove?

Here is a source I found and repayment rates tanked after 2009

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/education/our-insights/t...

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#238

Post by robswc »

haberman wrote: post #227

I agree with the article's diagnosis: the system is out of control, with no market forces are in place to keep costs in check. It's unsustainable for students to take on this level of debt. I'm not sure I agree with the solutions though. Making student loan debt dischargeable doesn't make a lot of economic sense. We're talking about 17-year-olds with no income and no collateral. Why would any lender want to be in thi…

> Do you want an admissions process that is partially trying to decide if you're financially responsible? Do you want your school pressuring you to choose a more lucrative major? Do you want communications from your school reminding you that it's important to be making good financial decisions? If your school is co-guarantor of your loan, it's their business to make sure you're going to repay on time.

I wouldn't particularly enjoy this... but at the same time, the alternative seems to be students that "don't know what they're doing" taking out loans over $100k to get degrees that are not in demand. These people will then claim they were ignorant of the true cost, job prospects, potential salary, etc.

The elephant in the room is that many degrees simply don't leave students with a lot of earning potential. I never understand why the discussion seems to trend (not implying your comment did this) towards how we can pay for these degrees or make them affordable. It sounds harsh but I don't know how to see it any other way.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#239

Post by Izikiel43 »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #234
spamizbad wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the key thing missing from this discussion are the employers who still demand these degrees. Let's say we reformed both higher education and student loans - does that have any meaningful impact on the demand side beyond pushing the salaries of degree holders up (thus increasing the value of a degree, thus making larger loan values easier to justify, thus...)

Most good employers, especially in tech, don't require degrees these days.

?

In general they do, it might not be a guarantee, but a degree helps pass hr filters. The only way to bypass that is having years of experience in a big company or a recommendation, for junior positions a degree is very necessary.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#240

Post by pelagicAustral »

wood_spirit wrote: post #14
pelagicAustral wrote: post #2

I was lucky enough to get a grant, 100% of cost, with two caveats, you have to finish, and once you finish you HAVE to work in the country for 2 years. Overall an amazing compromise for government.

Guessing from your username that this was Australia? Is this normal? And was this for specific courses and entry grades etc?

Falkland Islands. It is normal, only requirement is to have permanent residence. It is wide open, any type of study...
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