Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 414 posts

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#231

Post by schleck8 »

qqcqq wrote: post #226

This puts the total fines from the EU on American tech businesses at $14.8B in the last few years: https://loeber.substack.com/p/20-no-more-eu-fines-for-big-te... I think this substack is good, it makes a pretty clear case that US tech companies may not leave Europe any time soon, but they wield the power in the relationship much more so than the Europeans. Those regulators are overplaying their hands.

What happens then? They leave a vacuum and then what? Noone fills that vacuum? Assuming there is zero competence in the EU, which is highly unlikely since both the best image generation model right now and very respectable open source llms are from the EU, and on top of this several countries in Europe have exceptional tech talent (especially in the East), the Chinese would jump in immidiately.

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#232

Post by [deleted] »

askonomm wrote: post #4

Love it. Maybe one day U.S companies will learn that while they can steal and sell their own peoples information as they please, and they'll even have their own people brainwashed into such a state of stockholm syndrome that they will defend the corporations ability to do so, that's not the culture EU has, and it won't fly here. Corporations are not the peoples identity here, privacy and safety however are.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#233

Post by vanviegen »

returningfory2 wrote: post #192
philip1209 wrote: post #182

Which big tech company will be the first to stop doing business in Europe? It's going to happen sooner or later.

I'm not sure if it will actually happen. But the theoretical "problem" with these "X% of worldwide revenue" fines is that they change the calculus of launching an existing product in Europe. It makes it so that if a company enters the EU they risk it being a net negative to revenue.

Isn't that exactly the intended effect? Otherwise, why wouldn't BigCorp just ignore any inconvenient laws?

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#234

Post by judge2020 »

AlanYx wrote: post #170
pyrale wrote: post #143

> Since the end of last year, Uber uses the successor to the Privacy Shield. Sounds like they're going to get condemned again in the future, seeing how these things get knocked down again and again. The EU commission is really dropping the ball there.

The EC has issued an "adequacy decision" regarding the new EU–US Data Privacy Framework (the replacement for Privacy Shield): https://commission.europa.eu/document/fa09cbad-dd7d-4684-ae6... and has begun "certifying" compliance with the Framework: https://www.dataprivacyframework.gov/list So maybe the DPAs will defer to the EC's interpretation of adequacy under the GDPR for this new Framework? Lots of unknowns though…

> The only "safe" option without any uncertainty seems to be architect every system so that data never transits to the US and is also never in the custody of a subsidiary of a US-domiciled corporate parent.

If i'm not mistaken, because of this (via[0])

> The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil.

It sounds like compliance is only possible* if "the US company doesn't have any influence on the EU data-holding company" which is insane. This might be satisfied if the US company simply licenses their software product (e.g. the Uber backend) to an EU company. But this might not be adequate since chances are updates would be somewhat automated, and thus the US-based Uber might be compelled by the government to ship malware with their update to catch some US criminal (or otherwise enact some US spying).

* edit: only possible in lieu of a data agreement like Privacy Shield or its successor as mentioned above

0: top comment on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33561222

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#235

Post by scotty79 »

qqcqq wrote: post #226

This puts the total fines from the EU on American tech businesses at $14.8B in the last few years: https://loeber.substack.com/p/20-no-more-eu-fines-for-big-te... I think this substack is good, it makes a pretty clear case that US tech companies may not leave Europe any time soon, but they wield the power in the relationship much more so than the Europeans. Those regulators are overplaying their hands.

I think it rather shows that they make a fortune off of European customers if they can afford those fines so it's still terrible deal for Europe.

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#236

Post by eclecticfrank »

qqcqq wrote: post #226

This puts the total fines from the EU on American tech businesses at $14.8B in the last few years: https://loeber.substack.com/p/20-no-more-eu-fines-for-big-te... I think this substack is good, it makes a pretty clear case that US tech companies may not leave Europe any time soon, but they wield the power in the relationship much more so than the Europeans. Those regulators are overplaying their hands.

Two of your last three comments refer to loeber.substack.com

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#237

Post by nerdponx »

qqcqq wrote: post #226

This puts the total fines from the EU on American tech businesses at $14.8B in the last few years: https://loeber.substack.com/p/20-no-more-eu-fines-for-big-te... I think this substack is good, it makes a pretty clear case that US tech companies may not leave Europe any time soon, but they wield the power in the relationship much more so than the Europeans. Those regulators are overplaying their hands.

I admit I didn't cross check every detail here, but this article reads a lot like American "pro business" literature that cries about regulation stifling innovation, hurting American international competitiveness, etc.

The conclusion that the EU must stop fining American tech businesses does not follow from the evidence presented. I am willing to take them at their word that EU regulators are overly fixated on Meta and Google specifically... except here we are in a thread about Uber.

The principle that fines for bad behavior should be doled out to citizens is noble, but laughable. Is there any precedent for that anywhere in any developed nation state in the last 50 years? I'm not talking about damages in civil suit, I'm talking about proceeds from fines being directly redistributed to citizens.

Overall, I am very happy that, as an American, the EU is stepping up to govern and regulate American businesses, while the US federal government itself continues to extend its decade-long vacation from governing.

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#238

Post by Vinnl »

pembrook wrote: post #216
AlanYx wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EC has issued an "adequacy decision" regarding the new EU–US Data Privacy Framework (the replacement for Privacy Shield): https://commission.europa.eu/document/fa09cbad-dd7d-4684-ae6... and has begun "certifying" compliance with the Framework: https://www.dataprivacyframework.gov/list So maybe the DPAs will defer to the EC's interpretation of adequacy under the GDPR for this new Framework? Lots of unknowns though…

Exactly, compliance is currently impossible since this is a geopolitical spat between the US and EU over US law. The goalposts on this move every 6 months, so the fines are easy money for the EU. The companies are just collateral damage. For some reason HN is full of people who don’t actually understand this issue but feel very emotionally passionate that all US tech companies are evil and doing this on purpose. “Jus…

> feel very emotionally passionate that all US tech companies are evil and doing this on purpose.

Oh no, it's the US government that claims authority to use these companies to surveil EU citizens that is the problem here. One that, unfortunately, does affect all US companies.

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#239

Post by Auracle »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #147
pembrook wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's all very myopic and US-centered to focus on the company's freedom to do as it pleases. The Dutch DPA is not accusing Uber of doing anything nefarious. They are mad that Uber, as an American company, can be compelled by the US government to hand over data. Ultimately, their beef is not with US companies, it’s with the US government. This is all wildly ironic because the EU is constantly trying to spy on their o…

Government spying on citizens is one thing. Companies is another. GDPR applies mostly to the latter, and in practice, today , most people in Europe aren't being harmed by their governments spying on them, but they are being harmed by private business abusing personal data.

I would much rather companies “spy” on me than the government.

Re: Dutch DPA fines Uber €290M because of transfers of drivers’ data to the US

#240

Post by pembrook »

berikv wrote: post #229
qqcqq wrote: post #226

This puts the total fines from the EU on American tech businesses at $14.8B in the last few years: https://loeber.substack.com/p/20-no-more-eu-fines-for-big-te... I think this substack is good, it makes a pretty clear case that US tech companies may not leave Europe any time soon, but they wield the power in the relationship much more so than the Europeans. Those regulators are overplaying their hands.

The counterpoint to that article is: US Big Tech could also abide to EU laws and avoid fines altogether.

US companies literally cannot abide by EU laws, because they are subject to US laws, which conflict with EU laws. This is what all these European judgements are disagreeing with.

The companies are not at fault here. The governments are at fault for dropping the ball on coming to an agreement. We’re on like the 5th round of this. Compliance is impossible.

Until the two governments fix this, US companies cannot operate in the EU without being at risk for pilfering from EU government.

Post reply on HN