I will never understand people who write "Hello" or "Hi Joe" in Slack and then just wait. It has to be some form of mental illness.
It is like calling someone and saying hello in the voicemail.
No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
231–240 of 279 posts
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you spent even a nanosecond considering these other people, you might stumble upon the hypothesis that these people are trying to port the way they interact with others in meatspace to an IM channel, rather than assume some form of mental illness.
I think it's actually people bringing their norms from social instant messaging tools.
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
First off: Are water coolers even a thing still? At least in NL we just bring our own bottles and use the tap to refill it :p Second, I've not once in my life had a productive "water cooler" conversation. Not a single time, it's pretty much always just socialization about literally anything other than work. Same with lunch, people don't want to talk about work during their free time, and they don't. I've certainly ne…
I’ve had plenty of productive “water cooler” conversations. Especially with people from other teams, as we don’t interact with each other much. Cross pollinating ideas in a large organisation is conducive to spontaneous creativity. However, neither of our statements are very useful as they are just anecdotes, a result of our personal experiences.
Even if you subjectively "feel" that spontaneous creativity is increased, these chats don't make companies more profitable. So I'm guessing that this "creativity" doesn't have much actual value, and forced in person work certainly has a high cost to the employee and society.
Hard to justify the cost/benefit.
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you do text, you only help once. The problem is solved for everyone else, and you leave a trace for people searching for similar problems. On the other hand, in secret 1:1 calls with no trace, that only help one and only one person, you can appear busy and productive while also helping people in secret, and doing so multiple times for the same or similar problem. You reap the rewards multiple times. And since peop…
You're being cynical and it seems you take a quite extremist stance. My impression is you're blind to the value of ephemeral, low-ceremony discussion. Just bounce an idea of someone else and see what comes back. Sharing fews, helping each other learn, etc. Not everything needs to be recorded, in fact I'm very happy that most discussions aren't. Spare me the crap. I've seen many company wikis full of stuff that nobody…
Remember that old advice to email the boss with a summary of what he told you to do verbally - asking for confirmation that you understood it right as a cover - to cover your ass?
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#235We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…
This is my biggest frustration when working with new people. Too busy to explain context, then let me do it my way, then in PR review tell me to flip the whole thing based on specific context only few people had along with team specific style nits. Finally, manager asking why it's taking me so long to complete the work.
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
To whom? For my sanity and productivity that's the most important at least. I only enjoy working when I am in that flow state captured by the problem without having to worry about interruptions. This is when I provide most actual value and also get most enjoyment out of work myself. Everything that takes me out of it feels like annoying and frustrating interruptions. And usually I have to then try to not show my frus…
"To whom? For my sanity and productivity that's the most important at least." Optimizing for you vs the team is often not the goal. "This is when I provide most actual value and also get most enjoyment out of work myself." In most companies, it's much more valuable to have a team productive than a single individual, even if it comes at a cost to the individuals. IE Assume a team of 10, and that working like you sugge…
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But I love being in flow state, luckily I can still do it with my side projects. With side projects without being interrupted I can easily spend the whole day coding and at the same time building 10x to 100x as much as at a corporation job. Of course it's less realistic in a large company to have it, but I just wish my actual work was like that. Unpopular opinion: a very small team of skilled programmers that have…
I definitely agree with that, and I have been on both sides of the coin, with a little team doing a lot of projects very quickly and also a corporation job where things move very slowly. Also having done so many side projects. The unfortunate usual thing is though that the jobs that pay a lot usually involve a lot of people. Because when a small group of very productive programmers start out, their business is not pr…
What if we stop at making a lot of money in a proven business, and don't hire more unless absolutely necessary? Keep the team small and lean, retain the talented people who brought you here via profit sharing, and just...relax?
I am surprised that this model is almost non-existent.
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you do text, you only help once. The problem is solved for everyone else, and you leave a trace for people searching for similar problems. On the other hand, in secret 1:1 calls with no trace, that only help one and only one person, you can appear busy and productive while also helping people in secret, and doing so multiple times for the same or similar problem. You reap the rewards multiple times. And since peop…
You're being cynical and it seems you take a quite extremist stance. My impression is you're blind to the value of ephemeral, low-ceremony discussion. Just bounce an idea of someone else and see what comes back. Sharing fews, helping each other learn, etc. Not everything needs to be recorded, in fact I'm very happy that most discussions aren't. Spare me the crap. I've seen many company wikis full of stuff that nobody…
I tend to favor calls with people who prefer calls, and text with people who prefer text. But if it starts getting abused, the situation becomes different.
I don't mind agreeing to a bare zero-effort "hi, can we go on a call?" from time to time. And I give a lot of leeway to juniors and new hires, bending over backwards more than I probably should. But if it becomes a habit you can bet I'll start delaying my responses until the other party starts putting some upfront effort.
I usually expect mutual respect. Helping each other as fellow professionals working towards the same (company) goal, is one thing. Asking for hand-holding, or expecting zero-effort to be repaid with non-zero effort, is a completely different thing.
If someone asks another to go out of their way to ignore their other responsibilities and give you their undivided attention right now in a way that's uncomfortable to them, then it's only fair for this to be a two-way street. At some point, maybe not now, maybe not soon, but at some point, some sort of reciprocation is expected if this trend continues.
My previous comment was mostly just me ranting of places where that reciprocation wasn't the case because people only ever expect things to be done in the way that's comfortable for them specifically; which in my bubble, it has been mostly with the "only-calls" people, unable to hold any semblance of conversation over text. (EDIT: The actual topic might not be the same, but the mood definitely came from there.)
A pair programming session where we're both doing something, bouncing ideas, you check stuff on your end while I also check stuff here on my end, okay, that's a good thing.
But if it's just me remote-controlling that other person with my voice, I can't call that productive, and I'd rather play that pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey game while also working on my current task.
In my bubble, when people preferred only-calls it was usually also the case that they put almost zero effort when asking for help and just didn't want to bother spending literally 2 additional seconds to take a screenshot.
I can rant for even longer, for example how those same people (again, in my experience so far) prefer to go to the office to use a whiteboard in the name of efficiency, and somehow aren't bothered by the fact that you can't Ctrl+Z, that you can't move stuff around, that you can't rotate stuff, that you block the view while modifying, etc. And if you say that a few 90 EUR digital tablets would actually be more efficient, they say they can't afford it, but at the same time the managers travel (flights+hotels+transportation) to several countries in person to introduce themselves to their teams in person because this is actually more efficient.
And the people who prefer calls, and know that will be requesting calls frequently, and sharing screen frequently, and talking about stuff in their screen frequently, don't even purchase a cheap drawing tablet to make it easier for them to explain stuff graphically.
So yeah, take that as additional context for my rant.
TL;DR: If you prefer calls, I will tend to use calls with you until you abuse this, and this abuse usually happens eventually if I stay in a company long enough (fortunately not always).
Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#239Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a developer, arguably "flow state" is arguably the most important thing. Provided, that is, that requirements are clear and people are in sync what should be worked on. What do you think is the most important, if not flow state?
Well, you kind of assumed it away in your second sentence, but alignment is more important than individual productivity. And unfortunately, meetings, interruptions, and other communication are the best tools most teams have for that.
In my experience, once people know each other well (whether via direct face to face communication, or via observing each other's slack messages and PRs), it's much more efficient to put things in writing.
Then everything is in the open, for everyone to see and discuss/comment on. People can go back over previous decisions, people can see the context over why something was done, people can check previous votes. And, most importantly, people can do so when they need to do so, preserving their individual flow state.
By the way, when I said "flow state", I also mean the team's overall flow state, not only ICs.
E.g if we break down a feature in two parts, can we efficiently sync so the parts we make fit well together. Do we pair program, do we each take our chunks, how often do we sync and how, that's also "flow". My point is that "flow" here is still the most important thing for developer productivity. If you want to be doing your own part of the task, but I keep interrupting you with "hey, got 5 min", obviously something is wrong in our flow.
What is more, I can't be convinced that allowing these interruptions is the proper way, the price of achieving flow. I see that more as a symptom that we didn't agree on the ground rules, and that's where our flow goes wrong. Maybe we can batch the multiple 5 min interruptions into longer planned sessions, with agendas, where we go over your concerns and questions, which you spend the time to formulate and put on paper. That way we have a focused time with an agenda and we both can prepare for it, and there are no context switches for the rest of the workday.
I think the problem is that you consider "alignment" a thing on its own, but to me it's merely one of the components needed to achieve a good flow. In experienced teams where members are attuned to each other's communication styles, and respectful of each other's time and attention span, alignment doesn't necessarily need to be attained by meetings and interruptions.
Hence my point still stands that flow (individual and team) is the most important thing for developer productivity (and happiness)