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What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

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Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#231

Obviously people might screw up, but the spec included a way to revoke any signed components that turned out not to be trustworthy "trustworthy" according to who ? Remember that dystopia does not appear spontaneously, but steadily advances little-by-little. What's the summary? Microsoft (understandably) didn't want it to be possible to attack Windows by using a vulnerable version of grub that could be tricked into ex…

At the time of opening this page this was the top-ranked comment and that is a bit depressing. If you read Matthew Garrett's blog in full, you can learn quite a lot about what went into the process of building out secure boot for Linux.

* The UEFI Consortium via their spec mandates nothing, but Microsoft (not mentioned here, but to stick Windows stickers on your boxes and get WHQL for your hardware) requires carrying their db keys: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/9844.html

* You can take control of the process yourself and evict Microsoft's keys: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/16280.html the details are sort of in here, but let me summarize it for you: by default the platform key is provided by your manufacturer, which signs a key-signing-key, which itself signs updates to the DB (what you can boot) and DBX (what won't boot even with valid signatures). As the article says, x86 specifications explicitly require that this database be modifiable, so you can always install your own keys. I did this for a while, and on my laptop I evicted Microsoft's keys entirely. Ultimately you can bypass this if you can bypass the BIOS password simply by resetting the database or disabling secure boot and... well, https://bios-pw.org/ .

* The whole thing was built so that you can re-sign your own kernels and other bits if you want (you could just sign your distribution's db keys with your KEK, which will make OS upgrades smoother): https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html

* Here is an article on secure versus restricted boot: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/23817.html - I said above that the x86 specifications explicitly allow the key database to be modified (Microsoft's ARM devices were the inverse).

Now some non-Garrett points:

* To be affected by Windows Update, you need to run Windows. Tautological and true!

* If you update your firmware via, say, LVFS (https://fwupd.org/) and your distribution via its standard tools you get updates to things like dbx all the time. All from your hardware vendor and friendly FOSS folk, no Microsoft involved. You might even be using SBAT right now.

* Those Talos II boards people like? They also have secure boot. It is entirely optional and since Microsoft only implemented a "kinda" version of NT for PowerPC, they're definitely not involved. It is not UEFI, since there's no UEFI for POWER (there is for ARM and RISCV though). You also aren't getting anything from LVFS and barely anything from your distro, but, secure boot is there. You can turn it on.

Personally, providing I can control the keys and decide what is and is not trusted and whether I use it, I am fine with it. Depending on what you want to achieve, secure boot is not always unreasonable, and neither are TPMs - small example, software exploits won't be able to successfully modify the boot chain if you have good key management (i.e. you sign elsewhere). They also have their limitations - as usual, physical access is hard to defend against and remote attestation is a hard problem all around.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#232

Obviously people might screw up, but the spec included a way to revoke any signed components that turned out not to be trustworthy "trustworthy" according to who ? Remember that dystopia does not appear spontaneously, but steadily advances little-by-little. What's the summary? Microsoft (understandably) didn't want it to be possible to attack Windows by using a vulnerable version of grub that could be tricked into ex…

The alternative dystopia is one where the NSA can grab your laptop, rip out the storage, write some code into the boot chain, put the storage back, leave, and you have no evidence to know who did that. Signed code fixes this by requiring someone actually put their name to the code. If it's not someone I recognize, I don't boot. And yes, the NSA could theoretically compromise a signing key with a $5 wrench. But then t…

> the NSA can grab your laptop

If the NSA grabbed your laptop, you've already lost. For instance, they could replace all input and output devices (keyboard, mouse, screen, audio, etc) with ones that not only log everything you do, but also allow them to remotely control your machine as if they were physically present. They could then pretend the laptop was opened (by falsifying the hall effect sensor which detects the lid state), power it on (by forging a press of the power button), log into your account (by replaying the password they logged earlier), and do anything they wanted, as if they were you. They could even use the camera to detect when you looked away for a second while logged into the laptop, and quickly do some input, bypassing any extra validation (like fingerprints or a smartcard) logging into your user account might have required. No need to modify or even touch the boot chain and storage.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#233
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative dystopia is one where the NSA can grab your laptop, rip out the storage, write some code into the boot chain, put the storage back, leave, and you have no evidence to know who did that. Signed code fixes this by requiring someone actually put their name to the code. If it's not someone I recognize, I don't boot. And yes, the NSA could theoretically compromise a signing key with a $5 wrench. But then t…

Kompromat on a staff engineer is far more effective, sustainable and silent than a five-dollar-wrench attack

kompromat? pffff money talks. somewhere there is someone who will take a bribe, and 300k to completely compromise every toolchain in the world is a pittance.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#234
post #29

Isn't secure boot the first thing you disable when you install linux?

Depends on the distro, Fedora for example works with secureboot enabled. If you are using Nvidia graphics you have to deal with signing the kernel drivers but it is pretty easy, AMD or Intel works out of the box.

Yeah I thought Red Hat fought to get their keys installed in there, too. Which is why Fedora and RHEL (and derivatives like CentOS or Rocky) work alright OOTB

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#236
post #29

Isn't secure boot the first thing you disable when you install linux?

Most mainstream distros work fine with secure boot still enabled. You can disable it if you want, but if you use Bitlocker, disabling secure boot will require you to enter the recovery key, which is a massive pain.

You can always disable secure boot if you want to, but in this case installing the patches released two years ago would probably be a better fix.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#237

I think there's more than meets the eye here. I think part of the reason MS is enforcing TPM2.0 and now this SBAT update is that there is widespread rootkit level malware and they are trying to stay ahead of the curve. When it comes to the realities of dual-booting, I had tons of problems with Win7/8/10 with suspend-to-hiberfile.sys issues and updates 10 years ago breaking grub. 10 years ago I finally decided, "You k…

> [...] there is widespread rootkit level malware and they are trying to stay ahead of the curve.

There literally is. BlackLotus bootkit actively abuses a vulnerability Microsoft has been trying to patch (by updating the blacklist the vulnerable bootloaders) for the past two years and it's still ongoing AFAIK.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#238
post #194

Obviously people might screw up, but the spec included a way to revoke any signed components that turned out not to be trustworthy "trustworthy" according to who ? Remember that dystopia does not appear spontaneously, but steadily advances little-by-little. What's the summary? Microsoft (understandably) didn't want it to be possible to attack Windows by using a vulnerable version of grub that could be tricked into ex…

> Who is Microsoft to decide what others do on their machines? That would be an amazing rant had it only ended with "Sent from my iPhone". Since the Blaster worm incident two decades ago, we're in a new era where security at scale becomes the forefront responsibility of the companies developing the product. That includes writing more secure code, having more verifications in place, adopting more secure technologies,…

> When you have a billion devices running around the world, you can't say "hey we'll let this arbitrary group of billion people do what they think is best for them", because you then end up with Blaster worm, and the whole Earth falls apart.

The bug is in the fact that billions of machines are running exactly the same proprietary software.

Following the "virus" metaphor, having billions of identical organisms is how you get pandemics, mass die-offs, and extinctions.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative dystopia is one where the NSA can grab your laptop, rip out the storage, write some code into the boot chain, put the storage back, leave, and you have no evidence to know who did that. Signed code fixes this by requiring someone actually put their name to the code. If it's not someone I recognize, I don't boot. And yes, the NSA could theoretically compromise a signing key with a $5 wrench. But then t…

There's no state actor that any of that would protect against. You, and everyone else, is already compromised at a level so deep there is no hope of digging out if that is your adversary. What these technologies protect is market share, nothing more.

Strong assertions with no justifications.

Targeted attacks against individuals or small groups from state actors are basically impossible to protect against. Widespread compromises of all operating systems at the boot level should be fought against.

I don't really think malice explains Grub being limited b/c of Microsoft's software at the boot level. There's conflicting objectives at play, and that will inevitably produce, well, conflicts.

Re: What is an SBAT and why does everyone suddenly care

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is usually possible to decrease your attack surface.

Unplug all your computing devices, put them in a safe, embed the safe in concrete, drop it all in the sea.

Yeah that'll work for everybody who never ever touched any cloud service and who's friends and family never ever touched any cloud service (nobody in the real world).
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